King Arthur party. Help is most welcome.

Hi everybody,

I caught King Arthur on the telly last night and it made me want to give a party based on the movie a go.

I would appreciate any help/insight/comments on this party build. I have been playing this game on and off for a few years but all the D&D subtleties and complexities never really took with me so please try not to use too obscure terminology and strategies if you can.

I've browsed the forum and I think the consensus is that hack&slash heavy parties are difficult (few or no nukes, mediocre healing, no crafting) so I would like any input geared towards keeping my sarmatian knights alive with low or no magic.

What I've got so far (classes mean the order I plan to take them and how many levels so Artorius begins as a FTR then as he finds faith turns to paladinhood and then the hardships of his campaigns and the politics behind them cause a weakening of his beliefs, going back to ftr. And so on):

1. Artorius Castus. Commander. Ftr4/Pal4/FtrX - Party leader with Diplomacy. and Sense Motive. Use Magic Device if I can get away with it INT-wise, so as to be able to turn the tide of battles using magic items. To be equiped with Bastard sword (Excalibur!) and shield.

2. Lancelot. 2nd in command. Ro3/Ftr3/one each from then on. Dual wielding scimitars (so STR heavy). Skills: Open lock, disarm trap, tumble, intimidate, gather info, appraise, use magic device.

3. Tristan. Scout. RangerX(?). Dedicated archer. Hawk as a companion(?). Wisdom wil not be a priority. Maybe enough to cast a buff or two every now and then. Will make extensive use of Track.

4. Dagonet. Bruiser. BarbX(?)/FtrX(?). High melee damage dealer eq. with a 2h axe. Will rage, destroy things and then try not to die while the rest drag his crazy ass from the frontline.

5. Merlin. DruidX(?) No idea about how to make druids! I suppose he'd come with the celtic tatoos, short spear and only cast lightning and similar. No summons and jut a little healing for near-death emergencies. Oh and no shape-shifting.

As you can see I have problems with Tristan, Dagonet and Merlin. I would like to hear your opinion as to stats, feats (esp. fav enemy), multiclassing (that sort of fits with the party theme, optimization is welcome but not a must) and spells in the case of Merlin.

Mostly I'd like to know if this is doable all the way to the end, esp because of the lack of magic. What items should I keep and eye open for? I particularly dread an encounter with a certain oversized demon (or devil or daemon, whatever that big, fiery chap actually is) and am worried if the lack of buffs and nukes will make that and other encounters like that, impossible or too painful.

It things get really desperate I will not hesitate to roll and lvl up a cleric to craft holy+axiomatic weapons (maybe just Excalibur) and then dismiss him/her.

So as to guide your advice a bit: I will try to play some sort of ironman game. If any in my party dies (other than Artorius) then they stay dead. I will not add more than 5 PCs as I've noticed levelling gets awfully slow (for my taste) if I do. This includes NPCs so no Meleny, or that Cleric that you find in the church.

To make up for this, I will keep two chars on stand-by. Bors (if Dag bites it) and Genevere (in case Lance or Tristan take the dirt nap) and will console level them up if it should come to that.

I hope it will be fun and maybe some of you would like to try it or something similar =D

 

Well, I like this thing about party creation - althought I have hated the movie the party is based on... - so, lets see if I shall help:
(I'm considering they all as humans, right? So, two feats at first level)

No, no. As a Ftr/Pal, he is a veeery bad guy to be the frontsman. Let a rogue make the work. Arty will be a good tank, but a bad front guy - well, altought ig ya're not thinking about use the two inicial feats to use social feats, like Negotiator. A waste of feats, in my point of view. And use magic itens? No way! Again, let the rogue do play this role.

Now THIS guy shall be the frontman. Good skill choices (Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Bluff, Gather Information...). Scimitars are medium weapons, wich makes a bad choice for both rand weapons, if ya're not a half-orc fighter, barbarian or ranger. Rogues dont have the best base-attack of the game, so, use a light wepon on the off hand (a gladius, maybe).
Put a 16 in Int and let it use all useful skills of the game: Appraise, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Gather Information, Intimidate, Open Lock, Sense Motive, Tumble, Search and Use magic Device. Two Weapon Fight and Improved Initiative or Combat Reflexes are the best choice in the beguining of the game, My point of view.

Hawk aren't a companion choice in the game. Use a Jackal in place - they're veeery quickly. Point-blank-shot, precise shot, weapon focus (longbow) and buy a masterwork composite bow to him. A 14 is good enough for spell purpouses, but remember thar a good Wis helps Will saves. As Enemy, chooses Human. Makes sense with the background, and is good in game terms. giants, Goblinoids and Outsiders are good choices as ya advance in the game.

Ah.... Power Atack, Cleave and let this guy make the dirty work!

Druid. Good. Use a Longspear in place of a short one, becose of the reach thing. Ya'll not use ranged weapons after 3º level.
Let me talk about spells, now. In the first level, choose Cure Light Wonds. It helps in battle, to keep people alive, at least. In the 3th level, use Produce Flame (a 1º circle spell) and use it wisely. Activate it in the beggining of the realy hard battles. At 5th level, Call Lightning is the best choice. Change some Produce Flame for Bull's Strenght to buff ya fighters, and use Call as ya first offensive spell. At 7th level, Call Lightning Storm. Other spells? Why? Keep some scrools of cure wonds and other that ya find in the way, and set just offensive spells on this guy.
Animal companion, chooses a Attack Dog in the first level, a Giant Lizard on the 3th, a brown bear at the 7th. They makes a good help in battle.

A Druid is enough in a group with three tanks and a light gerrilla like this one.

I just will use Guenevere in place of Tristan as the ranger/archer of the party - just becose I prefer females on my parties.... and the thing of "console" the game... Hum... Is like cheating, what I hardly desagree. Just use one more guy, or let the things run wildely. I always say: If dies, is dead!

Hope to be helpful.

 

Thankee, thankee AdG! All humans, yes. I know I lose on some optimization but read on.

Yeah, I know Arthur as frontman is not the best choice but I was hoping the high CHA would make up for it somewhat. I only need it to make up for the lack of class skills to the point where I can actually have access to quests. In other words, I'm willing to incurr some "penalties" for the sake of role playing this one a little bit more than I'm used to. Is it really a deal breaker? Assume CHA of 16 to 18 and skill points every level.

Thanks for the advice re Tristan and Merlin! Yes, I thought of including Ginny from the start but she wasn't really part of the story in the film. I got the impression that the knights had a whole lot more of a story together (I usually have 2/3 males and 2/3 females in my parties, though. I like it better that way).

Pity there's no hawk as comp for rangers. I find it very surprising, actually. I don't know much about D&D but I would expect falconry to fit in very well with rangers. Oh well. I'll see what else is there other than jackals. They don't quite fit my idea of him.

About dual wielding, I thought of making him a STR-based char. Do you think it won't be enough? BAB-wise? If not I can go with twin gladius (DEX based) but...I don't think I have ever seen a masterwork one for sale in the game. Have you?

About using the console and cheats, hmm I respect gamers that don't resort to it but I really have no issues using it if I feel it improves my own experience (I don't play any multiplayer games so I feel I'm not getting in the way of anybody's fun). In this case, my thinking is that replacements would have been progressing on their own even if away from the party so I need not worry about taking a lvl 1 archer into the depths of the temple (where I expect the first, if any, death to happen).

Thanks again!

 

Ok, right. Ya have a good point there. With Intelligence 16, ya will have 20 initial skill points plus 5 points each level. Choosing Bluff (off class), Diplomacy (paladin), Gather Information (off class), Intimidate (Fighter) and Sense Motive (paladin) as ya skill choices, and a good Charisma score, ya will have a fair frontman.
And a good RP.

Well, as I saw, my choice will be Guinevere, just becose I like more women in the party. But, of course, use ya initial five characters are better for RP porpouses.

Aye, I'll like a hawk, falcon or somekind of bird of prey as animal companion, but only terrain animals are avaliable for the game (well, and the chiken, of course...), so the jackal looks a good deal.

Well, again, ya have a point. I just shall not remember a MW gladius in all game. And I have take a litlle look in the Description, and again, no MW gladius. Hum... This is a problem, for sure. Well, maybe a STR based character shall be good with a couple of cimitars, but not using a pure martial fighter is yet a problem. But I am not able to say that is not possible. I have done this for myself, a couple of times. Go on, and tell me the results, ok?

Well, I just don't like to use consoling in my own games. But is a very attractive possibility, and I'm not able to say that I've never used it - I have consoled some games for easy money in the map shop for properly equip my part more than once. I just realise that I have much more fun without using it. But well, I'll not say that ya're whrong becose ya use this way of play. Is a personal choice, I believe.


Dont thanks about my little help. I'm just trying to be so kind as people here have being with me when I have my own doubts. I do not have many chances to help here, so its good to feel helpful in some way!

Good play!

(and, please, make a report about the progress of ya game, right? I'm particularly intrested to know how Lancelot with him twin scimitars and Merlin with him druidism will evolve thenselves in the course of the game!)

 

Um, forgive me if i'm wrong but shouldn't merlin be a wizard? I mean i know you'll be out a healer but a wand of cure light'll help since your going to have a character with levels in rogue. As far as Arthur i agree with above. Just my two cents....

 

Well, this is a little complex to explain, becose I'm able to make complexe text in english, but let me try:
The Merlin that we usualy remember is the one that appears in the medieval version of the round table, a french-catolic version of the mith, written by Chrétien de Troyes, to elevate the moral of the church "voluntaree" troops that are going to the crusades. The original caldroon is changed by the Holy Grail, and Arthur receives a group of knights based on the Carlos Magnus' chivalry ideals. (well, some of tose elements appears in the Geoffrey de Monmouth's Historia Regum Britanniae [someting like the history of the britain's kings) in a free translation])
But the legend is much more old than the 15th century french tale, being "pagan", with a group of bretons in war with saxons (or saxonians? Sorry, as I saw, I don'd dominate english very well) that are invaders in theyr lands. Merlin, in this tale, is truly a Druid (called Myrdin, originally), a celtic sage, with control over the elements, able to speak with animals and shapeshifting itself as will, besides others powers (or, depending of what ya believe, just a conjunct of tricks and good use of right words to deceive anybody...). He heal Arthur when the "King" receives a mortal blow, using erbs and magic, and teach Morgana in the way of the forbiden knowledges and was a adviser of Arthur, though not even in the side of the King; He goes to the forests for long times, alone, for misterious reasons. So, he plays the exacly role of a D&D druid.

In later talles, is have seen Merlin being portraited as son of Queen Mab, a faerie queen, or even the Son of Satan, and some kind of repentant antichristus that canot realy let his true nature aside. Tose are much more recent versions of the "wizard".

But I believe that LegalTender is being anchored to the recent movie that shows Arthur as a Roman General, or some like this. As I have seen the movie a single time, and don't remember very well all about it, I believe that the Merlin of the movie have a limited number of magical abilities, if some, but he is a true druid in the movie (closer to the historical druid, instead of the D&D Druid class), and is hard to put him in any classification that way. In a realy acurate D&D adapttation from the movie, he will be, probably, an Adept. But I believe that a Druid is the best way to make him faithful to the movie. This or, maybe, a Bard.

Ah, damn long post!

Hope to by of some assistance.

Sorry for the big number of errors in the text, ok?

 

If I'm not mistaken, the character of Merlin was used to inform the original D&D Druid npc class.

And wasn't Merlin at least part druid in the movie "Excaliber"?

If I understand right, Arthur's title might be more akin to "Duke of the Saxon Shore", or some such. He would have his own company of Romano-British cavalry, maybe Sarmation or Alan(?), and have the power to call up the local militias and the nearby Patricians and their retinues.

I thought it was generally accepted that Arturius was Welsh, or at least had holdings in southern Wales. Though Londinium would be a more logical base of operations.

I can't remember the name of LegalTender's movie, which I think came out 5 or so years ago. Was it "Last Legion"?

Would the AD&D(1) stats for the characters be helpful here?

 

Hollywood have some greeeat movies, but sometimes... Agh! But I've liked the bretons and the Gauls (well, I remember that Arcturus was the thing that make me don't watch the movie again...).

Hum... Sorry, but I just dont get this Pelagian thing.... Mr. Google can't say me what this mean...

Oh, believe me, here in Brasil this is the most know version of the tale, for sure! I was just giving a histrical backgroud about my fellow Merlinus here! He!
(ok, I have forgotten to tell about the Malory's version. This version is much close of the Chrétien de Troyes' version, and I even forget it....)

 

@ted is referring to the recent film on Arthur, whose religious beliefs were christian, but of the Pelagius persuasion. Google Pelagius. Pelagius and St. Augustine were theological adversaries contemporary with the end of Roman rule in Britannia AD410.

 

Woah! Thanks for the thoughtful replies all!

I agree with all of you about Hollywood's treatment of History (it does make me want to pull out my hair sometimes). On the other hand, what film is doing today is no different than what the 15th century bards and story tellers did to older stories.

One could argue that with the rapid transfer information systems we have today there is no excuse for changing stories anymore; then again I think we just have more and more access to ways of increasing the 'epicness' of the stories in our own ways (read,special effects and the like).

I know a lot of people really disliked 300 for example. While I was watching it all I could think of was "holy crap, so this is what when through whoever-it-was-that-told the-tale-first' head when retelling the story!". Say, in real life there were only a few tens of thousands Persians on the field but heck, if I was that somebody I would also have said there were hundreds of thousands.

But I digress...

Yes, I went with the Roman-era Arthur for this party because I had read about some archeological discoveries pointing to a certain roman commander in the area about the same time that shared some characteristics with the figure in the legends. Then I saw the movie again and I just had to scratch that itch! Heh.

Back to my Arthurian party: Tragedy!

_____

Before coming to Hommlet, my knights had been travelling for weeks, their limbs growing weaker for lack of training with each passing day.

Arthur recognized the problem and decided to set up a camp on the outskirts of the town where the group could train without upsetting the villagers and with the added benefit of securing the approaches to the town.

As expected, it was not easy. It's hard to believe what a forced march can do to one's body. Little by little, the knights were gaining back their strength, sparring when they were not fighting the evil creatures that hid in groves or lay in wait to ambush merchants on the roads.

Just when their cofindence was at the highest, tragedy befell the knights.

Every night Tristan would, as was his duty, scout the perimeter of the camp and take the first watch. On that fateful night however, he had been struggling with a dark affliction that was even beyond the power of Merlin to heal...

And so it was that a dark abomination slipped past his watchful eye and fell upon the sleeping warriors. Fate would have it that the creature stumbled upon Lancelot first. The knights scrambled to their feet with the haste and instincts acquired through countless campaigns.

Eventually and not before sustaining grievous injuries, Arthur and Dagonet managed to hack the creatures' limbs to pieces. Merlin recognised the bark-like skin covering their foe's body and commanded the dying fire in their camp to awaken and engulfed the dark horror in it, burning it to ashes.

But it was too late. Unarmored and weak from the previous day's exertions Lancelot did not stand a chance.

The knights built a pyre for their companion. He would not have it any other way and leaving his bones in that wildernes for nameless creatures to ravage would never do.

And so passed Lancelot, trusted friend and advisor to Artorius Castus, Knight Commander and defender of his faith. Loved and respected by all who met him, his death weighs heavily on the knights.

Tristan did not utter a word for many days after that foul night. His condition worsens...

___


Ah, it seems to have come out more verbose than I intended. Heh.

But yeah, we got ambushed by a Troll while camping in the decklo grove. I usually spread out the formation while camping so as to minimize double attacks on any single char and was very, very unlucky. It could have been anybody else, although I guess Arthur wouldn't have gone down so fast, heavily armored and shielded as he was. =(

On the other hand, the remaining four are levelling up at an incredible pace. Skirmishes are dreadfully difficult and very close most of the times but I think I'm about to cross the line into more comfortable territory any time now (close to hitting level 7) so I might not replace Lancelot with Bors or Ginny after all =)

Thanks again for your replies and let me know if you would like to follow my Sarmatian knights as they venture into the depths of the Temple.

 

I feel really sad about Lancelot. I am sorry to know that a so valliant knigh like him fell in battle.

but this is a good reason for renewal! I don't wee why not call for Ginny in this moment. Even being much less powerfull that the knights, she will arive to the level of them really quickly, and probably will stand just one or maybe two levels lower than the knights.

I certanly convened her to the arms at this point!

With or without a 5th member, I pray for good luck on the journey of the Knights in the path ahead!

 

I never have anyone die in the moathouse, Usually my party stays alive until I get to the Temple.

 

I managed to get out of that one alive.

Dagonet was still raging after the fight with the bazillion guards just before Lareth so when we met him he just lost it and hacked him in two (I got really lucky and crit'ed him. It wasn't enough but Tristan went next and, for a change, connected for big damage). For Lancelot! Heh.

Almost had a TPK coming out, though. Had ran out of potions, Merlin only had 1 cure light wounds spell left and was down to my last cure moderate wounds scroll. I rolled really bad on initiative and the big fellow with the maul zipped past everybody and got one lucky hit on Merlin. That almost did me in. I had to 5-step cast cure on him and we were fighting on the defensive from then on.

I think I only made it out alive because I managed to cast a spike growth the next turn. I dispatched two or three of those butt-ugly oversized pooches that way.

Question: what level do you think this party has to be to get through the Temple guard tower alive? Note: I have Excalibur! (MW longsword + 1, courtesy of Merlin for lack of a lady of the lake/Artie's dad tombstone). Dag has a Great Axe (of butthurting), Merlin a longspear and Tristan a longbow.

Tactics? The only thing I can think of is to barkskin M and Dag (my "talk" with the sentinel will be my warning) and pray for M to act first-ish and get a spike growth off before the Silence spells start flying.

The last time I was there I had a proper party (Ftr, Wiz, Clr, Rog and Bard) and I remember it was incredibly difficult.