Water Temple Weirdness

I'm using patch 2/ 3.04/ Moebius fixes
For some reason High Priest Belsornig in the water temple wont initiate converation (I have a neutral party) he always just automatically attacks when I enter the water temple. Also the Juggernaut seems to be nerfed it only has 2 attacks one of them dealing non lethal damage. Has its stats been altered? it's been awhile since I played ToEE but I remember the Jug being much harder with I thought 3 attacks. The whole battle seemed easy and I definitely remeber it being one of the harder fights in the game. Anyone else notice this? all three other temples initiate conversation normally.

 

Do you have a Paladin in the party? There may be certain lines which are barred if you have one and may enter into a fight straightaway.

Looking at py00125belsornig.py reveals:
def san_dialog( attachee, triggerer ):
if (game.global_flags[132] == 1):
attachee.attack(triggerer)
elif (not attachee.has_met( triggerer )):
triggerer.begin_dialog( attachee, 1 )
else:
triggerer.begin_dialog( attachee, 370 )
return SKIP_DEFAULT

So if a particular flag has been set (in this case global flag 132), he will attack you immediately. I haven't checked in detail as to what the flag stands for but it could be agreeing to killing Belsornig (doing a quest for another temple).

Hmm... it shouldn't be non-lethal damage but I just checked and couldn't find anything different from the original entry for the Juggernaut in protos.tab.
The number of attacks, damage, damage type and to hit, have always been 2, 2d6+9, Slam and 15 respectively. Checked both current protos.tab and ToEE4.dat
AFAIK moebius's temple.dll has no effect on lethal/non-lethal or on number of attacks... could you check your findings again by reverting to an old save and replaying the fight?

 

Is it possible someone Juggy attacked had stoneskin active? I believe it'll report nonlethal damage in that case.
Also, for the record, I never found the water temple too hard. Certainly nothing compared to the fire temple with those two bloody salamanders.

 

No Paladin, party is mix of neutral / LN Dwarves with a 2 NPCs
(Wonnilon, Pitark)

I reloaded a couple saves from this game and went direct to Belsornig and couldn't get him to talk period. I reloaded a much older totally different game and Belsornig did speak to party, but that save was after a dialog was already initiated. So I am not sure. It would be great to know what the conditions for global flag 132 are.
I attacked Allrem after his "bow to me,fools" dialog, and did have a conversation with Romag that ended in an attack intiating as normal. I thought It must be with kelno, as I agreed to his first quest (parley with bugbears) but then Killed him. However, I reloaded back to before I spoke to him a directly went to see Belsornig first and he still automatically attacked. I must of set off the flag you mention somewhere. It would be cool to at least be able to coverse with Belsornig considering I killed all three other temples for him. You should still have the option of fighting him or not.

Definitely 100% sure the first attack (the slam) delivered non lethal damage to my Dwarf barbarian, who has natural damage reduction and is wearing crafted armor perhaps this combo results in a glitch?, I am sure one other character received Non-lethal as well. I will replay tonight and report back.

thanks

 

Ok, Here is the deal with the Jug, It does have 2 attacks both Slams at 2d6 (bludgeoning) with a +9 strength bonus BUT IF IT MOVES first and still has an attack then that one attack it recieves is all of a sudden an "unarmed attack" at 1d4 (+9 str) NON LETHAL now we know that's isn't correct. Also the Jug has different Hit points each reload on the last try thru he had 174 , this try I just did he had 162, that's odd because I remember it being closer to 200. Definetly seems weird, should be easy enough to investigate shouldn't it?

 

Well, the HP thing isn't weird, really. Just about all the enemies in the game have their HP rolled for (not sure when, but at some point). Juggy's got a set number of hit dice, but the game probably rolls his HP when he comes to life, getting slightly different HP each time.

 

Of course!, that was idiotic of me to overlook. I guess it's really just non-lethal damage things and the no dialogue that seem wierd.

 

That brings up an interesting note plothos. All characters and what-not seem to be pre rendered, but upon contact with them, each value they would have that pertains to the game(such as hp, even AC sometimes) seems to be randomized according to dice rolls. A different experience each time?

 

Different, yes, but not by all that much. Sometimes equipment is randomized as well. There are also enemies with levels, which is how those bugbears can sometimes get a sneak attack on you, or trip attack your wizard. It's also how those' big greater temple guys can have 100+ HP. But when you're talking a dozen or so bugbears with 10d8 HP, say, even if one or two have 75 or 15 HP, on average that same group will be about as tough every time. Likewise, the bigger enemies like the node bosses often have something like 20d10+200 HP, or something, making the HP less random. So, while the encounters vary a bit, the experience isn't all that different. It does have the effect that you can't use previous play-though experience to predict with certainty things like whether a few magic missles will be enough to kill off a hill giant you've hacked to near death, but that's really about it. I do like it, though. It gives the enemy just a hair more personality.

 

Ah, and I agree, finally -- something this game has over NWN(well... theres more).