TOEE is becoming too easy.

Greetings to all. I have been a lifelong D+D player, and have spent the better part of the last year playing TOEE almost excusively. EXCELLENT game. However, despite patches, updates and other add-ons, I am finding the game a bit boring. Basically, it boils down to having TOO much knowledge of the game and it is hard to find any surprises. Let me explain.

You know that somewhere there is a Greatsword Frostbrand, a Flametongue, magic Longbow etc, etc. Knowing how important they are to THIS game, the templates one makes are basically rigid. How many of you make a party where one of the characters does not have proficient use of a Greatsword, knowing full well a magic one is available. It is foolish to just sell it, so options are limited unless outright avoidance is wanted. With the added patch ANY magic weapon can be made, which helps in selecting classes of any sort, but it is hard to stray from the beaten path when one knows what they will encounter. If you are like I and have played through many times, we all know what is around the next corner, in the next room or the next level down, and we expect that to be the case. Therefore, subconsciously or not, we (or at least I, anyway) plan to ensure success, and the template varies a bit, but not much. You know you can get either Scather OR Fragarach, so make sure one character has proficiency in the Bastard sword.

I think the best thing would be for Atari to make add-ons that use the basic template, but allow the world to expand and create new scenarios. Scourge of the Slavelords comes to mind, or Queen of the Spiders, but the only work would be the worlds itself. The character generation and other essential working tools are already in place. I would personally prefer Queen of the Spiders, as Lolth is already in place from Iuz and Zuggomoty. What do you think? Don't get me wrong. I love the game and play it often, but it grows hard to find any anticipation of excitement or wonder at the suprise of it when you already know the secrets. I guess that is what it is like to be God--- omnipotent.

PJ Leeds

 

I don't think it is all that easy. In my first encounter I fought the giant spiders and got my butt handed to me in about 6 rounds. Then I got a random encounter with some giant crayfish and got wiped out in 3 rounds. It could just be me, I tend to suck at computer games, but I'm having fun even tho I keep getting my party killed.

 

Crayfish are a tough encounter for a first-level party, so don't feel too bad there. The spiders can be tricky if they web you, too. You'll get the hang of it. Don't worry.

 

You are both right, and when I first started, I too got my butt kicked. My point is: for those who play repeatedly, such as I, the game lacks variance that allows for continual surprise. I will not deny that I tried and died many times in the early stages, but now, I cannot rememeber the last time I died.
I look forward to add-ons, though.

 

Perhaps they could have some kind of random encounter system in the temple. I mean, they've already got you running into stuff when you rest. That must mean there's supposed to be guys wandering around, right? Besides, what, does nobody ever leave their 10 by 10 room? The decor wouldn't change, but you wouldn't necessarily always know what's around the next corner.

****Spoiler Alert*****
Oh, and as for a challenge, how about the quest sending you to Emridy Meadows at level 1, where, oh by the way, there's a HILL GIANT!!! When you know it's there, you can sneak in and steal his awesome armor, then come back at level 3, or just memorize a bunch of grease spells, but the first time you stumble onto him, whoah!!! Lost my dwarf pretty darn fast.

 

if you have played the game so many times that you know it all, then I doubt there is anything we can do or say to bring back the challenge into it... perhaps it is time you tried other games?

 

I played D+D for years, over 20, since I was 10. At that age, what TOEE represents is the utimate dream for any D+D player. You can make a party, control the actions, see the action and the result. There is nothing wrong with imagination, but pictures are a thousand words. Excellent DM or not, there is no amount of description that can replace the ability to control and play it on screen. I continually play it to try new things, possibilities and variances, but it allways comes back to a template that is roughly the same: have 1 character proficient in the longsword, another in the Greatsword and one in the Bastard Sword. Doesn't leave much room for anything else, but it is fun nevertheless.

 

Well, given the items there are in the game, you do benefit from having a party like you describe, but that doesn't mean any game you play HAS to follow that line. Why not try something else and make yourself stick with it? How about this: 2 guys with kick butt polearms, like a glaive and a ransuer, magiced up of course. Give the first guy (at least) whirlwind attack, and make sure his buddy has great cleave. Heheh. I feel like it's a different game entirely with this setup.

 

I understand, but my point is to point out that to maximize the enjoyment, or to follow the story(or plot) the template is somewhat fixed. Why add in a Frostbrand, Fragarach or Flametongue if not to use it. My point is that after playing through several times, with many variations, if one does not follow certain guidelines then it is not successful.

Try a party of elves all with longbows, and you will clearly understand.

 

Well, certainly there are certain combinations of characters that aren't going to be effective. That's not really the fault of ToEE, it's built into the mechanics of the D&D rules. The rules are such that balance is needed in the party. 5 elven archers wouldn't do very well in a pencil and paper game either.

So anyway there seem to be two separate gripes you're voicing, the first being that the game is too easy, which I think can be handled by either making a party that's not as good (your archer party comes to mind), or by actually role-playing. If your characters don't know what's around the next corner, don't have them prepared for it. If they sneaked around and found out, then let them prepare the right spells, etc. Have them blunder into a party of bugbears now and then.

The second complaint seems to be that one very specific party type is clearly optimal, given the items in the game, and that therefore you are not encouraged to vary your party makeup. This is a more subtle and, in my opinion, a better gripe than just that 5 archers isn't a good party. I tend to agree with this point, although I do think you are allowed a bit more variation than you seem to be implying. I mean, sure you want guys good with certain weapon types, but Fragarach, for instance, always hits, so it's not like you have to be good with it to use it. You can also get a monk or two and give them those nice magic cleavers that are all over the place (weapon counts as a handaxe for purposes of focus and specializations skills, btw). Beef those up with keen edge, +3 and some elemental damages and they're better than just about anything else in the game, imo. Moreover, they're easy to use, so you're pretty free to do what you want party-wise. In the end, I think no matter what ultimate items were put into the game, they're going to "define" what party you'll want to use, because you'll always tailor your party to them, if you want to make use of the items. There's just no way around this, other than randomizing what items there are in the game. My counter-point, then, is that you really don't have to use these uber-items to be effective, and there are a great variety of parties that can be effective, though some may not fare well against certain enemies. There may be, perhaps, a "best" party, but it's advantage is small, and there's no way to avoid this being the case. You can't do well with all archers, but maybe two monks and three wizards or four fighters and a cleric or something. That's about as varied as the D&D rules let you be, and I think this game does a pretty good job of allowing the same stuff. The only way in which certain party setups are preferred is unavoidable, or else built into the D&D rules.

 

I totally agree. The problem is: you and I already KNOW what is around the next corner. Having played the game a lot you know exactly what is in each room how many, and how to defeat it. My point is that it is rather fixed. The do, after all, have the mechanics for random encounters, so why not make each adventure in TOEE somewhat different. Maybe instead of a room full of bugbears, which we have come to expect, you find Eyes of the Deep. They are, after all, in the lines of code, so why not use them more than just once in the water node.

Send in more random encounters with other partys, good and evil. My greatest D+D fun wasn't monsters but other partys. I am sure they could make anyone shiver. Although one would have to be careful to not send out a too powerful party so that the items would make the characters too powerful.

To me, if one can start in any number of ways, with the created party, it would be nice if that same variation could be done for the monsters. Bassano and Kelno are always in the same place. You come to expect this, but if it was random (or part so), you would "always be on your toes". I am not complaining, but perhaps trying to offer constructive critisism in the sense that if there are add ons, then lets make it all the more better.

 

Several posts back, I wrote:
"Perhaps they could have some kind of random encounter system in the temple. I mean, they've already got you running into stuff when you rest. That must mean there's supposed to be guys wandering around, right? Besides, what, does nobody ever leave their 10 by 10 room? The decor wouldn't change, but you wouldn't necessarily always know what's around the next corner."

So, naturally, I agree with you here. Heck, even in Hommlett, guys move across the Jeweler's shop or over to the Welcome Wench at nightfall. No way Kelno stands around in that little cubby hole 24/7.

 

Good point... are there actually any plans for an add-on? A Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, perhaps? Or, for that matter, any other D&D 3.5 party-based PC computer games in the works? ToEE broke most excellent ground here, but I'm ready to see something new in the same genre.

 

In my other game, I have Fruella....Eeek! She is a very irritating NPC. I'm seriously considering dumping her. Not sure she is worth all the whining!

As far as the game being too easy, I've never played D&D before, and I'm managing to get my butt kicked the first time I run into stuff...The spiders were a challenge, thank the great sky goat for the Break Free slot in Movement. (took me awhile to figure out it was there though.) I've noticed that as I level up, it gets easier.

I haven't even thought about Emridy Meadows, I'm still working on clearing out the moathouse! Is the Meadows a place I should go to before I do the Moathouse? What is the opinion on that, and how on earth do you sneak up on a Hill Giant?