Desperate Housewives Quest No Longer Hard?

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by blackfly, Jan 2, 2008.

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  1. blackfly

    blackfly Established Member

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    When DH quest came out it was obvious it was injecting some new reason to dialogue and explore. The Sandalwood box is obvious why it is worth it, but with all the latest mods I am wondering if it does not need to be reworked or prehaps looked at differently.

    By the time you get all the necessary items for Lila, with the mods, the characters in my party were all level 10 and well equipped in magic, arms and armour. When you finally meet Saduj, the fight is not a challenge at all. I easily handled them all with no buffs. I remember the fight being more of a challenge, like the encounter with Rannos and Gremag, and I am thinking that most now probably console in the items needed rather than wait for the box as in the sequence needed to get them. Is is perhaps time to find another way to get the box, or at least make the combat with Saduj a little more challenging? I think most parties who no encounter him find the same as I. I am wondering if I am alone in this observation.

    Not to say, of course that the work done in the modding is in vain, but perhaps the mod is not up to the mods as they are now especially with all the added magic, money and weapons available to parties before the encounter.
     
  2. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

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    Yah... actually the modders were just discussing the need to 'rebalance' elements of the game. This is doubtless one of them. However we are focussing on KotB atm: but yes, you are quite right, some of the newly modded bits are indeed unbalanced.
     
  3. blackfly

    blackfly Established Member

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    I understand priorities and it is indeed more to focus on KotB. I am only pointing out what I am finding running through the game again after about a year, and I am seeing the mods adding too much XP, gold and treasure to balance out the difficulty of the encounters that are already there. I think most would agree that by the time the temple is the only remaining hold of monsters most could skip the first and half of the second level entirely just to save time. Not like the dungeons are actually life threatening. I do them only for the dialogue issues to make sure "no stone goes unturned".
     
  4. Zebedee

    Zebedee Veteran Member Veteran

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    Aye. How on earth the game is going to be rebalanced is another thing altogether - it is a very free form RPG afterall meaning that parties should not and cannot be led through nicely tailored to level encounters.

    All ideas useful really for when modders start to return from their work on KotB.
     
  5. Allyx

    Allyx Master Crafter Global Moderator Supporter

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    Well as I probably stated on the forums previously, my general plan for the reballancing issue is this...

    DH will remain unchanged, it doesn't add too much treasure or XP, and doesn't unballance the game too much. However, Verbobonc, Hickory Branch, and the respawn in the moathouse will be delayed to the point where players have dealt with Thrommel (for Verbobonc) and/or Hedrack (for HB) before this new content can be accessed, I'll fit the moathouse respawn in somewhere, and give the monsters in these mods a serious boost in power/numbers.

    I hope to begin work again on this project shortly after rolling up a new CMF version to include all recent additions and fixes. and by the time I'm done, we'll probably have a new installer version for the Co8 mod too.
     
  6. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

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    I'll probably fiddle DH myself when the time comes - smarter AI, and less treasure. I've come a long way since those days ;)
     
  7. Zebedee

    Zebedee Veteran Member Veteran

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    Sweet allyx. No criticism of you and Ted intended - know that you two will do a great job with rebalancing whatever you turn your hands to. Just thinking about it more generally - the more content, the more xp really leading to those who try to do everything ending up with overpowered characters. Just a general thing which happened with original game really.
     
  8. Half Knight

    Half Knight Gibbering Mouther

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    That could be after players arrive at Nulb, or when the temple is found.
    Or it would be boring wait to have the game so advanced to play the new things.

    Or (not to be a pain , just throwing ideas) Verbobonc and HB respawned: you encounter them at the levels they are encountered right now, but drastically leveled down.
    For example, using the same map, HB could be first a simple big map, with a few encounters, and later be the actual Hickory we all love.
    Verbobonc could be just a map for completing the quest of the merchants and no more (maybe to buy a few scrolls, and chat with people), and later, go with thrommel, for full mod Allyx's madness

    Slowly but sure, i'm learning to make more useful things, so when time comes i could be of help, if you want. :)
     
  9. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

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    I absolutely guarantee the Moathouse respawn does NOT occur before the players get to Nulb.

    One thing to remember is we have made the Guardians / Zuggy tougher, so people do need those extra levels: I don't think you can finish the game at level 10 nowdays.

    One of the main elements of the rebalancing (at least the little bit of it I am going to do) will be incorporating Liv's new Ai scripts. Whereas before I tended to add magic weapons to make encounters tougher, now we can just add smarter AI - tougher encounters, less loot, everyone wins (balance-wise). :)
     
  10. Fernando

    Fernando Established Member

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    Now that's a great idea :clap:
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2008
  11. Zalmoxes

    Zalmoxes Forest Guardian

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    just a,probably silly undoable, thought. Wouldn't be possible that some bigger, more important, fights in the game "adapt" to the party level? I.E. more powerful your party, lot tougher the encounter?
     
  12. Half Knight

    Half Knight Gibbering Mouther

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    You just wait to for Livonyas new AI... :evil_laug

    You could expect more than stupid bugbears attempting to trip... :eek:mg:
     
  13. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

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    Like that wasn't bad enough :nervous:

    Shoulda been in a circus the way those f***ers tumbled.
     
  14. blackfly

    blackfly Established Member

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    In terms of the Moathouse, the respawn is definitely nice, but how about a reason to go there other than going to Gnarley Wood? Kenter Nevets tells you that some Burne's Badgers went there to reclaim/investigate the place and never returned.

    Otherwise, why would you go back unless someone asked or there was a reason. Up till now, the only reason is to get to Gnarley Wood.

    In terms of Hedrack, I like the idea of the mods coming later or until you have dealt with him but here's the problem: Most will find little reason to go elsewhere when the end is so near. Related to this, you could skip the nodes altogether and not miss much (but you will miss some interesting combat and weapons, but hardly anything on the story).

    I think the balance is relating the CR to the party level. And perhaps to the magic they have. You can be level 9 and have used up all the XP in magic creation, and thus based on level 9 you are way out of wack. Or, perhaps, limit the difficulty given the number of actual characters you start with. After all, if you are allowed 7 generated characters tailored to your need to succeed, it should stand that EVERYTHING is harder. YOU have more to begin with, so should everyone else.

    Me, I think random encounters with oppossing partys (that you cannot plan for) would be easy and ideal. It is a logically extrapolation from actions. IF the party is cleaning the dungeon out, then hiring assassins, thugs etc... to get them in their sleep is perfectly viable (and understandable, like Lareths' assassin). I think it would be easier to make up parties rather than scripting in AI. And since random encounters can't be planned on the danger factor is high. You KNOW what is in the broken tower, Water temple..etc... but what is around the next bend or on the leisurely stroll to Nulb.......

    MY personal favorites are the party encounters since they are always harder than monsters, more interesting with, usually, more to gain.
     
  15. wraith_bones

    wraith_bones Member

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    i 2nd that motion,some of my most memorable moments as a player & dm in pnp is the fight against other adventuring bands..any1 remeber the slave lords?? :rock:
     
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