Vs. Reach Weapons - Tactics?

All humanoid troops carry & use pole arms & missile weapons. You have to get the kind they favor from their racial descriptions in the texts that describe them. Don't forget that a javelin is a spear to a kobold, who would never be able to use a halberd or a pike. Not very reach-y. Unless trained and supervised closely by officer types, not very many would do much more than hurl missiles & then swarm into melee. And pole arms are more or less effective depending on the numbers of supporting weapons used en mass. A single pike is good for one reach attack, then you are screwed by the guy with the hand weapon. That same guy won't get to you if there are other pikemen adjacent to (& behind) you so everyone in the first 3 ranks gets a stab at any attackers. That's the very reason why pikes are so long. Humanoids count on numbers, not tactics, to win. They may have a trick; or even a trap or two in their lair, but they aren't masterful tacticians. Individually, you'd see some stand-outs; great war chiefs & champions. But they are usually light or medium infantry. Hobgoblins are the exception, well respected for discipline & tactics; they are the spartans of the humanoid races and fight well in heavy formations.

 

Sounds like Lord Spike and I pretty much agree; surprisingly; on this one...
( but what matters for Liv's mod is how LIV sees humanoids, we can only offer suggestions)

I also dont see most humanoids as having the discipline for good-order close-formation tactics -
although i would like to point out that the humanoids in KotB are VERY tactical by the module - just not that tactic.

Although as previously mentioned, the phalanx formations WERE defeated by both Roman and Spaniard close-combat solutions...

ToEE doesn't represent the up-close disadvantage of reach weapons that well - which i agree is their natural balancing - particularly since in 3/3.5 you can always 5' step out of engagement ( one of our DM's uses a rule that if you full attack - engage - a target - you may advance with them if they 5' step - much like the idea of still moving during others turns that informed the idea of attacks o' opportunity. And while I agree with this and in practice it makes being engaged MORE of a pain in the ass; I don't see how that could be implemented even IF anyone wanted it - the point was as-is doesn't punish pike-style weapons).

Anyway:
Any suggestions for how the AI can handle the players reach weapons?
Spike's implied kobolds-as javelin skirmishers feels right to me; if I was 3' tall i woud not be in a hurry to come to melee...

 

Why not? Standard goblins and hobgoblins have Int 10, and Wis 9, not much different than a normal human. A standard bugbear has Int 10 and Wis 10 - identical to a normal human. Further, all of the goblinoids are aligned as "usually lawful evil", which means they are used to working in an organized manner. Given that goblinoids are by far the most common humanoid in ToEE, it seems to me that organized close-order tactics should be commonplace.

Even kobolds are Int 10, Wis 9, and usually lawful evil. Really, the only "dumb and disorganized" humanoid race that occurs with any real frequency in ToEE is orcs.

 

Berserker - Liv's mod is Liv's mod. Her baby, her call, her choice on what to do. Probably best to not even bringing it up in relation to this thread

But this is an interesting discussion for when it comes to trying to implement the changes Liv is bravely pioneering into ToEE itself.

I think variety is the key for thinking humanoid tactics. Some goblin tribes may well be fantastically drilled in close order combat. Others may struggle to figure out which way the pointy end goes. That variety will also force the player to think and utilise the vast number of choices which the ToEE combat engine provides. I don't think a one size fits all approach would be appropriate if the amount of time needed to make Liv's new AI scripts work in ToEE is to be invested.

 

Why not is that most HUMANS didn't develop really good close order tactics of the kind Spike and myself (myself at least ) were discussing (phalanx in particular).

For example; when the Europeans COULD again (the end of the "Dark Ages"); cavalry again quit being the queen of the battlefield (yes; this is debatable - we can take that debate to totalwar.org if u like).

It not only requires Intelligence (which is merely potential; no?) - it requires a society that is willing to train soldiers to fight just so - specialists - and implies a level of societal sophistication thereby.

I said I don't see most humanoids that way - and I don't imagine them having cities and guilds either... thats just me and MY imagination of humanoids; you are fully free to see them differently.
Keep in mind that both Spike and myself were playing LONG before the current stat blocks were assigned to this edition of rules & monsters by this set of designers.


PS: @ Zebes: Please don't be so quick to jump on MY back - if you'll kindly review a few posts further back you'll see that spike was responding to a thread that had become about Liv & half-knights discussion of their hypothetical creatures

 

Sure, many don't. But I don't see any reason why humanoids couldn't. An idea you seemed to dismiss out of hand.

Say, a society that would be modeled in D&D terms as lawful evil? Not only are goblinoids about as smart and wise as a typical human, they are, by nature (according to the standard rules), an organized race. I would expect goblinoids to adopt organized teamwork based combat tactics far more than humans in a world operating under D&D assumptions.

I have too, and in those versions goblinoids were much as they are presented now. If you go back to your 1e MM, you might be surprised at the intelligences, alignments, and proposed social organizations ascribed to many humanoid races.

 

I DO dismiss the idea of most humanoids as having cities; guilds; and phalanxs out of hand - because that is not how I see them...

and since they don't come at you in ToEE in phalanx formation; I guess neither did G.

I don't have a problem with them fighting with tactics however - again; reference KotB...

But anyway; like I said that's how I see them.

Good point about the original monster manual; I no longer have mine as I traded it for soem tear gas that seemed more important at the time (..sigh).

But if you have yours handy; I'll be more than glad to hear some illustrations - how do the stat blocks compare; btw?

I'm sure you will at least admit they gave kobolds an overhaul - I think I like the new ones better.

But seriously; please go ahead. I don't mind hearing how YOU see the humanoids, nor what you find in the MM - could be interesting. After all this is a forum!:thumbsup:

 

Lawful Evil means that they can be bullied into following orders. Hobgoblins are the disciplinarians of the bunch. Humanoid troops will fall to fighting amongst themselves; putting this aside to fighting with their rivals; or better yet to fighting against hated enemies. This could even be against another group of humanoids before it means taking on a group of elves or dwarves if the latter are easier to deal with than the former. They also fall to looting fairly swiftly if not strongly monitored & disciplined by officers. The lawful part of their alignment only applies in the presence of lawful authority, because they are morally corrupt (evil).

 

its only hobgoblins that are LE, goblins are NE and bugbears are CE.

anyway attack a phalanx with high level monks, wizards and rogues and it would fall apart pretty quick, what with fireballs, sneak attacks, abundant step and evasion all on your side.

 

Thanks Cujo -

Like I said I don't have my books anymore; even if I had wanted to check.

And I could well be wrong but i thought 1st edition goblins were listed as "Low" intelligence; though I have forgotten what the exact score range for that is.

I also would define Tyranny; for example; as "Lawful Evil" - which I think is pretty much what Spike was saying as well. I see Evil as inherently based on selfishness... which ultimately undermines cooperation (and I believe this was one of Tolkien's underlying themes).

Your solution to phalanx is certainly a valid one - & fireballs, or any form of Area of Effect ( cough cough... artillery ), would not be forgiving of those who fight in close-order.

I still believe Strom Raven may have a point that humanoids - or goblinoids even - despite being revealed to NOT be overall lawful evil; might have more to them than I was crediting, and i'd like to 'hear' what passasges he was referring to, but even if he had proven that the 'official' D&D goblinoids were ( to be facetious ) all guild-member city-dwelling doctorate-having paladins that fight like Athenian Hoplites, I still will imagine them as I do, and hes free to imagine them however he does, the argument seems a little less carved in stone now tho.