invisibility too powerful?

I have been a LONG time lurker here, but I've never really seen this issue addressed. Is it just me, or does invisibility seem way too powerful, particularly the rings?

I'm an old-school-first-edition AD&D man, and any good DM always kept the rings of invisibility in a campaign to a bare minimum (if at all). The invisibility spell was never that big of a problem because it had a limited duration. But in TOEE, a player w/ a ring of invisibility can basically explore the ENTIRE temple, no problem! Doors open and close, and the bugbears, humans, and other denizens of the temple are none the wiser.

I have noticed the bosses on the nodes will sometimes notice an invisible player, but otherwise, players have carte blanche. Obviously, a player can choose not to use the rings, but this was always something that got under my skin.

I realize none of the modders and sages here can do anything about invisibility, but I was curious if anyone knows exactly how invisibility works in TOEE? Do NPCs just make spot checks or something? For example, if an invisible player character opens a door into a room of bugbears, do the bugbears get bonuses to their spot checks?

On an unrelated note, I have thoroughly enjoyed all the mods. It's added countless hours of playtime to this game. Exemplary job!

 

what about somehting like a pit trap thing but you don't fall in, you alert anyone inside the room that you opened the door.

 

Thank you for the reply, Ted. I'll try sneaking while invisible and let you know. I do remember Senshock "spotted" my invisible character once, which was quite a surprise (because the rest of my party was not in place)! Although I seem to remember there was no roll in window that tracks the rolls.

Do any of the rules mavens out there know how invisibility is supposed to work per 3.5 guidelines? Specifically, how visible characters spot the invisible? I know back in previous rules various monsters could see invisible characters (i.e. demons, devils, etc.) or had heightened senses like smell or hearing. But I don't think there were any hard, fast rules. It was always the DM's call.

What you're planning to do w/ KotB to increase spot checks sounds very cool, and Cujo's idea about using pit traps seems feasible. I know a lot of people have complained on these boards how a party can tear through the temple, leave to rest for a few days, return, and the temple has done nothing to prepare for a return engagement.

 

Ted,

Sneaking while invisible makes no difference. I used a fighter in plate mail w/ a Hide value of 1. As long as he was invisible, he could sneak all he wanted and no one could see him. As soon as the ring of invisibility came off, he could be seen.

Interestingly enough, Senshock most definitely can see invisible characters. However, he cannot see a sneaking rogue.

Incidently, I'm running TOEE version 5.03.

 

I'm pretty certain that some named NPCs are triggered to respond when any player controlled character approaches within a certain distance (which might apply to Senshock). I think (but am very unsure) whether this applies whether you are invisible or not. Does invisibility override this reaction whereas sneak doesn't?

My head hurts now. :drunk:

 

Is it Senshock who has got the little summoned critter? Doesn't that see invis?

Doesn't answer the fundamental question I guess but that's the only answer which I can think of right now.

 

... confused.....
my favorite tactic for Senshok is to inivisi-balize myself and then ring him with invizi-balized pc's and whack him hard.... keeps him from summoning his Gawd...

... be vewy quiet, I'm hunting wizards......oke:

 

I'm going off memory at the moment, as I'm not at home, but I'm sure that 3.5 rules on invisibility are similiar to if not identical to AD&D. Meaning that unless the observer (i.e. monster) has some way to detect you, whether magical ( 'TRUE SEEING' etc..), or mundane (heightened smell e.g.), or you do something that could be detected normally (opening/closing a door, stepping in puddle, etc..) no spot checks are allowed. Listen checks should be as normal in any case, you're invisible not inaudible.
This may be a simple oversight on the part of the original designers, or they didn't (or couldn't) figure how to implement so many variables. It would probably be difficult to have the monster check, and then what does it do when it doesn't see anything, even though it may hear/smell something. Monsters with average to high intelligence may figure it out, but some may not (cmpletely). It may have been a comprimise of neccessity to go the simpler route, even though it does seem to make invisibiliy stronger than maybe it should be.

 

You're thinking of Hedrack; thus your confusion. Senshock worships Lolth, and she never makes an appearance. Would that she did...

 

Senshock detects the invisible wizard, but she shoots him with the S&W.50cal. Hedrack doesn't detect, but dies the same way. Can't summon help or teleport away when you're dead.

 

im not quite sure whats so overpowered about being able to explore (but not defeat) the entire temple. Ok, you stole into the temple and got to see Zuggtmoy... but can you kill her? no... if you attack you lose your invisibility so its only a short-lived advantage... oh, and you're level 3 you cant really loot anything without causing trouble, and most of the good gear is on the actual monsters... right?

i mean... from a roleplaying standpoint you'd be getting information on the type of enemies youd be encountering, and can gear yourselves towards it... and thats not really that great an advantage especially once youve completed the game once heehee

i mean, yes - monsters noticing mysteriously opening doors would be good, but it doesnt exactly seem game-breaking to me unless im missing something

 

You can buff Invisibility on all your melee characters, position them around an enemy, and begin the first combat round with a full attack from each. With flanking + invisibility + flatfooted + sneakattack + buffs, just about every boss in the game can be killed in one round or less unless you get unlucky with the attack rolls. IIRC this worked on all bosses with the exception of Senshock, whose script forced combat on approach.

Enemies outside of combat will never detect an invisible character, but entering combat mode (by pressing C) and doing nothing seems to give them their Spot/Listen checks properly, or at least allows them to attack the invisible character.