Scather confusion

I guess that answers my question in a round about way.

 

You did have things such as 'speed factors' and 'rate of fire' and 'to hit modifier according to AC' for weapons, and they had a considerable role to play, if you used all the pertinent combat rules.

"Speed factors" determined how slow the weapon was to 'prepare and swing'. So if you draw a dagger (SF 2) and your oponent a two-handed sword (SF 9), you had a considerable chance of attacking before your slower opponent (initiative roll was d6 - dex bonus + SF).

"Rate of fire" for missile or hurled weapons indicated how many projectiles you could shoot during a regular round of combat: in one round, you could through up to four darts, or shoot up to two arrows, whereas you were limited to only one with crossbows. So, quite unlike D&D 3.0, you were naturally faster with a bow than with a light crossbow.

"To hit modifier according to AC" was rarely if ever implemented: each weapon had a bonus or penalty depending on the kind of armor (expressed as AC) that it was trying to pierce. So, for instance, wielding an axe your character would have a +1 versus chainmail (AC5), whereas a dagger would have -2 versus the same armor. You had a considerable penalty to attack a knight in full plate with your quarterstaff, or to pierce his armor with thrown darts. This particular rule explained why some clumsy, slow weapons (the heavy crossbow) could still be interesting against certain foes... D&D 3+ has made it easier to play combat, but has dented realism considerably. But as I said, most people didn't use these elaborate rules...

All in all, I much prefer the D&D3+ rules. For one thing, you don't have to be a genius to memorize the relevant rules... Being a DM back then required considerable mental stamina, I think...

 

One last post - When we played D&D, everyone (each person) who played was expected to learn the basics of what their character had for scores and modifiers, to figure out what they would need to roll a hit for their character and take in to account modifiers for whatever rules the DM decided to use in the game regarding PC characters. If a DM only uses a certain amount of rules (not all the rules), it's all good if a DM applies the same exact rules all the time (with no deviation). DMs would have characters killed if a person was caught cheating [even after the fact]. So, no one tried to cheat. (Where's the fun in cheating anyway?) Yah, any DM in any version has a lot of rules to know, and there are more rules in newer versions of D&D than in older versions of D&D. Plus, a DM does not have to use all the rules if they do not want to use them. A more simple approach to playing D&D can be more fun if you have a good DM. The DM and players are what makes a D&D game session or campaign fun. IMO - the farther back in D&D, the less cumbersome it was to play D&D considering less of a number of books that people can buy. One big difference between then and now was monsters could have AC from about [the best] -9 to -1, 0, and +1 to +9 [the worst].

I recall people started using THAC0 in 2nd Ed. THAC0 (pronounced thacko) was easy. All you needed to know was the literal To Hit AC 0 for a weapon. If the THAC0 was 16 and a monster had an AC of 5, you did a subtraction of THAC0 minus AC for your chance to hit.
* 16 - 5 = 11 needed to hit and do damage
If a monster had an AC of -3 and the THAC0 was 13, the to hit roll needed was 13 - ( -3 ) = 13 + 3 = 16.

 

We never used thac0. We tried the 'weapon vs. ac' modifications, but ditched them. We also tried miniatures for some events, and they were ok, but also cumbersome as anything more than 3d character models. The one thing about them we did differently was using huge battlemats with dry erase markers. We mapped directly on the mats when using minis. Space required was applied to limiting people's movements more than anything else. In a 10' wide corridor, the two guys in the front rank have to each use a weapon that takes 5' or less of space to wield. Those in other positions have to be able to hit between or over them. So, archers & spell casters were in subsequent ranks. You could put a short character up front to expedite this...halfling thief or dwarf fighter, etc. Speed factor was only used as a determining modifier in initiative situations, much like casting times. My most powerful fighter could attack 5 times in two rounds with a great sword. Against someone swinging once or twice with anything else, he ruled, regardless of weapon speed. That's where skill was the dominant factor, not speed. His thac0 at that particular level was 4...without any modifications.

 

I always preferred the original AC rating, it was just really great to have a char with negative AC and a low THAC0. I hated to see it go, I remember discussing this with the rest of our regular "Players of the Round Table" (that's what we called ourselves). I still don't like seeing a 15 or 19 for my AC, my first thought is my char must be unconscious and naked. We also thought the next change would be the implementation of spell points instead of number of spells, (console gaming style). I'm glad that didn't happen.

Just my two coppers........:icon_chuc

 

I never played the second or the first edition of D&D on
tabletop. I only know it from video games such as Baldur's
Gate and Planescape: Torment, and etc. I never understood
the whole thac0 thing... It seemed unnatural to count ones
AC upside down. Anyway, this is a Scather discussion, so why
are talking about THAC0?

 

'Cause someone hijacked it, oint: you little...:rant:

:grin:

 

I've still got that in a box, as well as module B3: Keep on the Borderlands.

We had miniatures from almost day one. They weren't that expensive, though they were pewter. Quite frankly, I'm appauled by the modern resin/plastic molded ones. That's why I wouldn't go near Warhammer -- plastic things just seem wrong somehow.

We played on graph paper -- you used 1/4" and used four of them for a 10x10 "square". Yeah, it probably should have been a 5x5 and hence a "standard" dungeon hall would be 2 wide (which is to say, 8 little squares) but we did just fine anyway. We let 2 fight side by side.

Later on, my dad bought home a big 5' wide roll of laminated 1" squares drafting graph -- designed to be written on with magic markers and erased. We could fit the entire caves area of Keep on the Borderlands on one giant map on the floor, with pewter figures!

Life...was...sweet!

We did this, except we had figured out how to use a ruler to make 1" squares on blank sheets of paper.

The original basic set did not have dice! It came with a pre-printed "chits" sheet, which basically had numbers on little squares that you cut out and put in a bag to pull out random numbers.

We bought boxes of a dozen miniatures, so kept them in those foam lined boxes (except for the double-sized monster box with 24 things in it.)

I still have all this stuff in our ragged cardbord box, including the original "big 3" books. We don't need no steenkin' masterwork crap. I miss my flint and tinder box, too.

And an 18/xx strength for your fighter, sheesh. My 18/91 fighter would have broken your 26 strength fighters in two with one hand. :hahano: :drunk:

We just ignored most of this, assuming you walked around with your weapon out, which was not much of an imagination stretch given most pewter figures had the weapons out.

 

I have the front end installed and it has "autosaves" off, as does the in-game options screen, so I'm good there.

The best non-magical armor you could get was plate mail, giving you AC 3. With a shield, you had AC 2. End of story. There was no "plate armor" in the game, which I presume would have been 1 AC better, and IIRC, the guide even describes it as being too complicated and expensive for the world. A loaf of bread was like 1 cp, and hence 400gp armor (about what plate mail cost) would have been 400,000 loaves of bread, or about $600,000 in current currency. (They also had electrum pieces in-between silver and gold.)

 

Anyhoo, back to Scather.

I'm successfully (if you can call it that) dual wielding Fraggy and Scather. As near as I can tell they are both identical in stats. The Co8 patch does indeed make Scather a bastard sword. At level 10 (all fighter), with 22 strength and, as near as I can tell, maxxed out bastard/2-hander specializing (offensive stuff anyway) and Great Cleave, I have 4 attacks per round (2 per) with +18 for both hands (don't know about 2nd attacks).

Given these "always hit", it probably have should skipped some of the +attack feats in favor of something else.

This is:

+10 (class fighter, L10)
+6 (str, 22)
-6 (dual wield)
+1 (feat: Greater Weapon Focus: Bastard sword)
+2 (feat: Two Weapon Fighting)
+1 (feat: Weapon Focus: Bastard sword)
+4 (item: Scather)
-- Always Hits (Sword: Fraggy)

I'm happy enough with the "always hits", the real bonus of the sword, that I would settle for a mod that stripped "always retaliates" from both swords in lieu of a true bug fix.

 

The real problem, though, is that dual wielding them, almost anything that hits me puts me into the state where I cannot do anything because of the retaliation. This isn't just fire sheilded things and the like -- it's anything.

The one trick on the message boards that you can open inventory and try to use a potion or scroll (which will say "you can't at this time"), does work, but only some of the time. Sometimes you need to do that over and over again a few times (perhaps once per monster remaining in the buggy queue, who knows), while other times it won't unlock itself no matter how many times you try.

And sometimes it's even worse where the mouse will move around, etc., but you can't do anything -- even keys don't work like esc to pull up the menus.

If anyone has any other workarounds for this, that would be really swell. I'm reduced to pulling off monsters 1 at a time, save every turn, and try to kill them in one full attack (which usually works, 4 hits with the swords are fearsome, around 100 points, and with a few retries you get a crit.)

I presume the retaliation system really chokes when you have 2 retaliating swords.

 

I like using in-game legal mechanics to get thngs "you aren't supposed to".

IIRC back in Baldur's Gate II, you could get not just 1 but 2 rings of Gaxx (rings of regeneration on steroids that healed noticeably in real time) that stacked. (The trick was to chug a potion of master thievery and then pick pocket the demi-lich in the first battle -- he was carrying a ring ("The ring") of Gaxx. Then kill him, he turns to the full lich, kill him again (which you're supposed to do) and he drops his ring. But you already have one.

Darn, now you have two. And, as mentioned, they stack, giving a good regen rate that was fast enough you didn't need to go back to town, though not fast enough to really make a difference during a battle.

That game also had another awesome item (besides the "always on" boots of speed that gave you perma-hasten in fights) -- the cloak of spell rebounding, which had a big bouncing force field animation that reflected better than 95% of all damaging spells back at the caster. Beholders were chumps to that.

So my ideal perfect guy (well, girl, half-orc) is my typical solo fighter with those (not this game's) boots of speed, those 2 rings, the spell shield cloak, and Fraggy and Scather, bastard sword versions. A +4 girdle of giant strength wouldn't get thrown out of bed, either.