Paladins

I have a modified dlg file of Lodriss of the tavern in Nulb. If you want to barter , then you have to speak to her. There was a paladin in the group and he never knew she was lawful evil. With highly modified protos she is a great fighter. Had he done detect evil on her then there would have been a problem, but detect evil doesn't work. Does a paladin do detect evil on every stranger he meets?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't an evil god's "blessing" actually be a "Curse" for a Paladin, anyway? Rather than falling, I would think that the Paladin would be affected by a curse spell.

 

well, the answer as far as I know is no, a cure of an evil cleric does not do any harm to a good character, it's just the same whereas of the good cleric unknowingly healing an evil character in his party.

I myself is curious about paladins, can they marry a woman and have kids, good religion celebrate life am I right? Or what happens if a male paladin is raped, or a female paladin is forced to have sex, will they fall or will their Gods understand that it is against their will, thus still letting them use their divine skills?

 

Indeed. Different sects have different requirements. They do not all need to abstain from sex, marriage, etc., though they must remain true to their faith & oaths whatever they entail.

An example of what you're describing sounds like this...King Arthur's son Mordred was conceived by the use of the dark arts against him by his half-sister; so his bastard was conceived through rape and incest. He was married to Guenevere at the time, whose shape Morganna borrowed to complete her treachery.

Arthur is a 14th level Paladin (in AD&D), but if he ever fell, it wasn't for this reason. Lancelot (Lvl-20) fell, because it was his choice to commit adultery with the Queen. Arthur cast him into exile & sent the queen to a convent, when the law called for both their deaths. THIS would be a reason for him to fall - he failed to uphold the law - (in fact, breaking it) which no one...King included...may do.

As for other points people are trying to make here - Paladins who accept Blessings from evil priests are going against what they've sworn. Paladins must seek them out & confront them. They constantly Detect Evil so how could they not know? They'd get a feeling about it pretty quick once they began interacting with the person, and if they didn't, they'd better be sure who they're dealing with before they start taking Blessings from them!

 

In my experience as a Dungeon Master in AD&D, he falls. And he humbly and joyfully seeks atonement. He sees his fall as strengthening his faith and teaching him humility. He is not proud of his acts , even in saving other's lives; He feels he should have found a better way.

If you don't want to be that restricted, play a Lawful Good fighter and pal around with a friendly cleric.

By the way, the fall of one paladin can lead to many a great adventure to restore grace, sometimes a whole campaign.

 

im not into greyhawk but priest spells is just another magic. holy and godly but still magic. gods care where thier magic goes but does not view every single spell. a paladin might feel bad for having a rival gods blessing but i dont think his god would pay much attention to it as to cancel his paladinhood for a simple bless spell.
i dont think an evil gods priest blesses anyway. espescially a holy paladin. more like it would go on as a curse on him

 

I agree with William's take on things. I think many gamers are WAY too punitive on paladins. As William said:

I won't belabour the point but I do wish to emphasize something. Not every Tom, Dick, and Harry can become a paladin; it takes a MAJOR effort to gain the status of a paladin. As such, I feel it should take a major effort to lose that status.

If paladins are falling at the drop of a hat (or the drinking of a Hommlett beer), then nobody's going to bother to become a paladin. Why go through that intense effort, only to fall because you gave somebody a dirty look, or because your whites weren't their whitest? If paladins can fall for the tiniest thing, then they are going to spend their whole lives walking on eggshells to ensure they don't misstep. They will in fact become politicians; in order to ensure they never make a wrong move, they will never make a move at all.

A paladin falling should be an exceedingly rare event. You should be able to count the number of times paladins have fallen on your fingers. Paladins should be rock-sure that their deity has their back, and the people should be rock-sure that paladins are here to stay. If paladins are going through a revolving door of falling and atonement, you have cheapened what a paladin is, IMO.

Here's an example I use. Imagine that you yourself have a child. You love this child, you have raised him/her, you would do anything for them. Now, what would it take for you to disown this child? What incredibly foul things would your son/daughter have to do for you to spit in their face, disown them, and say you never want to see them again? How incredibly low, debased, disgustingly evil would they have to be for you to want to cut them out of your life completely? Would you disown them for getting really drunk in a tavern? Or receiving a blessing from a priest of a faith you despise?

Gods have invested enormous time and energy to find, train, and empower paladins. They know paladins are mortals and are going to make mistakes. Gods should only revoke that status when they feel the paladin themselves have already shown, through their own actions, that they no longer wish to be a paladin. There should be a long pattern of degrading behavior. Not because they violated Article II, subsection C, paragraph 4.

 

Getting there is hard; staying there is hard, too. If it were an easy thing, we'd be up to our necks in paladins. I agree with a lot of what you say. Having a beer shouldn't make a paladin fall. Participating in a rowdy activity that brings discredit on your patron deity should. Backsliding is what Atonement is for, and could be as simple as not tithing. Powers are granted; they get cut off, and the paladin makes amends for it to have them restored. The paladin is not snuffed out summarily...s/he is put on "time out" like the wayward child in your example.

 

Thank you, Aeroldoth. Very good point. However, I feel like the issue at hand- i.e. accepting blessing/cure from Evil characters- is one of those very slippery slopes. It comes down to the ends justify the means. The first time its done with soul-searching; the next time its a little easier. Believe me, I know- I'm an American. I won't go further with that. He's my president, and Mom always said: "If you can't say anything nice......." Well, you know!

 

If the paladin knows what is doing (accept a blessing from a evil god), he will know what could be the consecuences (could fall) and put his trust in his god; having the example of a weakened paladin accepting the help of a evil cleric, this means that he is willingly sacrificing himself (phisical, moral, and spiritual) to be judged by his god for doing the right thing (help innocents in this case), so i don't think that a good deity make a paladin fall just for being zealous whit his cause; in fact would be admired of a "chosen" so dedicated to the cause of goodness that is ready to put himself under judge;after all, is the paladin, not the god, not the innocents, perhaps not te evil cleric, who take the consecuences . This, of course, that the paladin has exhausted all the powers his god grants him, and the "evil blessing" doesn't be a common thing...

 

When I'm role playing SirChet, I would not accept a blessing from an evil cleric...he's EVIL.
I would not enter into an agreement to help an evil cleric...he's EVIL. I could not stay in a group that accepts a quest or enters into an agreement with an evil cleric...he's EVIL. (see the trend here). I wouldn't necessarily have to smite him, but I cannot associate with him...he's EVIL.

Of course this is just how I play my Paladin

ps........I believe Aeroldoth has hit the nail right on the head.

 

I was with ya, sir...right up to the "necessarily" part. :scratchhe

Paladins are created for the express purpose of seeking out & defeating the enemies of all that is lawful and good in the world. Smite him? ...most definetly. Butcher him? ...not necessarily. The evil priest can always seek to change the error of his ways and become a force for goodness. On the other hand, if he dies in combat, then he'll see if his faith in an evil deity was well placed!

 

Oops, sorry for the faux pas. (Yes, that IS nearly all the french I know!)

An evil paladin wouldn't offer a beneficial spell to a good one, especially to save innocents. Maybe to save his own skin in some way. Alot depends on alignment. But a good one might accept, if its the only way to preserve innocent life. He would feel extremely guilty and immediately seek atonement, if the player is correctly role-playing. I've had a few players who thought they could play paladins, and I took sinful pleasure in shooting them down every time human nature reared it's ugly head!
It's good to be the Dungeon Master! Bwaahhahahahaha!