the guys on Prince Thrommel & Fragarach

interesting for a short, good read

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Tim Cain, Project Leader

Gary Gygax on Prince Thrommel And Fragarach:

Here is my question to Gary Gygax on the matter of Prince Thrommel and his sword Fragarach.

I wrote:
Prince Thrommel is in stasis in room 334. He is listed as a Paladin Lord, but no alignment, class or level information is given. His sword Fragarach is listed as Chaotic Good, and Lawful Goods take damage and pass out if they try to wield it. Does this mean Prince Thrommel is Chaotic Good as well, making Paladin Lord just a title? Or is Fragarach's description in error?

To which Mr. Gygax replied:
Heh. I was planning a CG Paladin, one who didn't fit the mold. Because of circumstances I never got around to that, so the easiest and likely more interesting way of managing the dichotomy is to have the name "Paladin" as a title. Celtic myth-inspired swords just can't be of LG alignment, eh?

Steve Moret, Lead Programmer

Steve's take on it:

My take on it, (keep in mind this isn't necessarily the Tim, or the Gygax, or the official, or the module way of looking at it) and I'm a neutral party here...

Prince Thrommel was a Paladin Lord... not a Paladin. Fragarach is clearly chaotic, look at what it does! There is no lawfulness in that at all. He may have led paladins, but he himself needent obey their rules as strictly.

But of course thats what I saw in my cheerios. But I add sugar...

sorcerers.net article

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Hmm... now that someone's mentioned this again, if anybody here reads Order of the Stick, this kind of reminds me of the situation with Lord Shojo and the Sapphire Guard.

For the rest of you, I'll see if I can dig up the comic that explains it all.

EDIT: Managed to find it, if anybody's interested. It's an amusing read, either way.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html

 

there was at one time rules supplement that never made it into the books. "a paladin for every alignment" and it was just as the title says it gave you the stats and names for new paladins, this is where the anti-paladin originated from.

 

Frank Mentzer said the whole Fragarach being Chaotic Good thing was a typo. The fact that there is no Chaotic Good Paladin is irrelevant to the module, since Gary's Players Handbook 2nd Edition (where said Paladin would likely have occurred) is locked in some vault that WotC now controls. Now, if only WotC would RELEASE the 2nd Edition according to Gary, the world would be a better place. :dribble:

If some shmuck hadn't hacked EZBoard a while back, I could've linked where Frank talked about it a couple of years ago. :smarty:

 

so was it sposed to be chaotic neutral or chaotic evil? I ask cos there's no way in hell its a lawful weapon.

btw, In Irish mythology, Fragarach, known as 'The Answerer' or 'The Retaliator' was the sword of Manannan mac Lir and Lugh Lamfada. Manannan wielded it as his weapon, before passing it on to Lugh (his foster son). It was said to be a weapon that no armour could stop.

Forged by the gods, it was given to Cúchulainn by Lugh, and later to Conn of the Hundred Battles.

all of the people who used fragarach in Irish mythology would be chaotic in dnd terms or a the very least non-lawful.

 

Hmm... nicely put. "Typo"... Here's what UltraCompare says to this:
Chaotic vs Lawful
Doesn't look like a typo to me. [joke] More of a slip of the tongue or pen.
And because of this we now argue why should Paladins be only lawful good,
if prince Thrommel wasn't.

 

well the actual module lists in the back the swords of answering and that there is one for each alignment so one of the swords is lawful good. it didnt tell which one was which alignment so either that info is buried elsewhere or they never decided leaving it up to the DMs to decide.

 

I doubt all the alignment-based swords had the exact same abilities, anyway. They probably varied at least a small amount. I have yet to see any specific examples of the swords, but I have heard of them from GameBanshee.com's ToEE section.

EDIT: Actually, it states there are only six swords that were modeled after Fragarach, so, no, not one for each alignment. They're three short. Maybe the three they're missing are the Lawful-aligned ones?

"Other Swords of Answering", at the bottom:
http://gamebanshee.com/templeofelementalevil/magicitems/fragarach.php

EDIT2: Either GameBanshee is outdated, or their information is incorrect. I've found a few other people referencing the nine swords... Let's see... Somebody mentions having found it in the "old UA". One of the original editions of Unearthed Arcana? Would that have the swords?

EDIT3: AHA!! I've found it! It appears that all nine of the swords were in Dungeon Issue #106. If somebody can find that book, we can find the stats for all nine of the swords and put this to rest.

 

well these are the names of all nine. the dungeon issue 106 is an article coverting the original swords to 3rd ed rules. i havnt been able to find any stats on them. only a few notes saying they are listed in the 1st ed unearthed arcana as the final word swords and that EGG never provide alignments to each one wanting the DM to do that.


Answerer
Rebuter
Replier
Retorter
Scather
Squelcher
Backtalker
Concluder
Lastquip

 

Note: This information was taken from TSR's original AD&D adventure, the Temple of Elemental Evil.


FRAGARACH

This hefty steel broadsword bears a mighty enchantment. It was originally fashioned for a demigod of elsewhen, and eventually passed into the WORLD OF GREYHAWKâ„¢ Setting. It served well for a short time, all too soon falling into the hands of the minions of Chaotic Evil. It has been in their grasp for a decade or more, resting in hiding in the Temple of Elemental Evil, guarded by the worst of elemental grues. Fragarach means "The Answerer."

The sword is of Chaotic Good alignment. Any Lawful creature trying to grasp it takes 1-6 points of damage and falls senseless for 1-10 rounds. A Neutral creature holding it takes only 1-3 points and swoons for 1-4 rounds. In evil hands, Fragarach has no "to hit" bonus whatsoever; in Chaotic Neutral hands, it will strike but one opponent per round. The sword functions perfectly only for a Chaotic Good user. In such hands, its + 4 bonus always operates, and it will strike as many opponents unerringly as have struck at its possessor. Fragarach always hits all such targets, the + 4 pertaining to additional damage only. Note, however, that The Answerer always strikes last in a melee round. Against evil opponents, the bonus doubles (to + 8) whenever a natural 20 is rolled for "to hit" determination.

The sword has a hilt of silver and gold wire, most cunningly wrought. Its guard and pommel are set with perfect emeralds (corundum)—7 gems, total value 65,000 gp. Its scabbard is likewise trimmed with precious metal and decorated with many gems of green and golden hue, worth another 35,000 gp.


OTHER SWORDS OF ANSWERING

When Fragarach first came to this world, it received immediate attention and quick renown; so much so, in fact, that six other swords like it were forged and enchanted. These are lesser weapons, of course, and their alignments vary. Each has a + 2 bonus (and cannot hit opponents struck only by + 3 or better weapons). On a natural "to hit" roll of 1, no bonus applies; on a natural 20, like their predecessor, the bonus is doubled (to + 4). These lesser swords are identified by the differing gems set in guard and pommel. They are reported to be amethyst, aquamarine, garnet, peridot, topaz, and tourmaline stones, with combined value of about 24,000 gp per weapon, 16,000 gp per scabbard. These weapons are named Rebutter, Scather, Replier, Retorter, Squelcher, and Back-Talker, in honor of Fragarach.


Temple of Elemental Evil @ GameBanshee

 

Do you all forget that all of this has been hashed out before? This is the proverbial dead horse. Cavaliers (and all their abilities) were as close as was ever gotten to having a paladin for every alignment. Next thing you know, people will be arguing once again about things like how many swords of answering there were, and if people think Tharizdun is the elder elemental god or not.

:jerkin:

Kap'n..I'm especially surprised at you. You were here when all of this was debated before. Get your nose out of the tech manuals for a minute, and pay attention!

:chairshot

 

i know Spike. i posted all this about 2 years ago when i made the swords for the game.

 

I found a web page article containing the information I posted in the original post. Steve Morets' thoughts on the Tim Cain and Gary Gygax Q&A are interesting reading. I was only wanting to share the information in the original post, not start an alignment sword debate. (The second post was just for the original To Hit and jewels/gems/metals information for the other swords.)

 

Discuss away, fellas. I'm merely pointing out that it's all been posted & linked to before, even those very articles. Twice, now, iirc.