In fact, all masterwork shileds have armor check penality reduced by 2, making buckler and small shield get positive value. Normaly I would not bother much with this, if I didn't noticed that this way, nonproficient character get bonus when using some of those shields. Is there any way to fix this by moding. If it is, can anybody give me instructions to do so?
Well, I found a way to fix this by changing protos.tab file. Although I noticed similar bugs with armors too. Then I decided to revert these back to original official values, but I noticed that even they are not done properly, since many armors, especialy magical ones (and some masterwork like st. leather or buckler) get both lower AP and +1 bonus on skills for being masterwork (giving a double bonus). So I tried to fix these thorugh whole file, and in process I found seveal other things too. There is one type of murdane masterwork full plate that is considered medium (fixed by changing it to heavy). Elven chainmails have both masterwork and enhancment flags leading to getting +2 skill bonus for beining masterwork (removing masterwork flag fixed this). Barbaring armor is masterwotk (?!?) making it better and cheaper then Strudded Leather (fixed by removing the flag). Here is the file if someone is interested. (it's Co8 mod compatible with changes noted above)
Elven chain in the DMG has an armor check penalty of -2, while regular chain mail in the PHB has an armor check penalty of -5. Elven chain would need a +3 skill bonus from enhancement/masterwork/whatever to correctly replicate D&D. The rest of your assumptions seem to be correct.
My apologies for the late reply. I went home on some personal business and did not have ready access to files to check your findings. It appears that the engine now reads magical armors/shields as masterwork (getting the skill check penalty lessened by 1), so as you say, if an item gets an additional bonus of 1 in Col81 (skill check penalty), then the bonus would be doubled. All Column numbers (ie Col81) refer to columns in protos.tab when using Phalzyr's editor. As for the following items, we will need to switch back to the original values (current values in ToEE4.dat in brackets are the new figures) {6049}{Chainmail +1} -4 (-5) {6094}{Chainmail +2} -4 (-5) {6095}{Chainmail +3} -4 (-5) {6097}{Lareth's breastplate +1} -3 (-4) {6102}{Otis' chainmail +2} -4 (-5) {6104}{Full plate +1} -5 (-6) {6121}{Banded armor +1} -5 (-6) {6122}{Full plate armor +3} -5 (-6) {6131}{Hedrack's full plate armor +3} -5 (-6) {6222}{Masterwork studded leather} blank (-1) {6231}{Masterwork buckler} 0 (-1) As for these armors: {6125}{Blue elven chain} -2 ? {6214}{Green elven chain} -2 ? {6215}{Purple elven chain} -2 ? the engine seems to read the Masterwork bonus twice. As Tallas mentioned, the correct value for non-magical Elven chains is -2 (final value) so we should correct Col81(skill check penalty) to reflect this. I also note that: Green has Armor Masterwork and OIF_IS_MAGICAL flag Purple has Armor Masterwork flag only Blue has Armor Masterwork flag only Tried deleting the Masterwork flags, tested and found that they now only display the Masterwork bonus once for skill check penalties. If we are to treat the Elven Chains in ToEE as magical Elven Chain then deleting the Masterwork flag as you have done should be Ok. However, Elven Chain while not magical, is probably already considered Masterwork (from the time it takes to forge one). If this is so, the bonus would have already been incorporated into the -2 skill check penalty. I hope we can come to an agreement regarding Elven Chains. If we treat Elven Chains as non masterwork then a magical Elven Chain should get a bonus of 1 to skill check penalties. If we treat Elven Chain as masterwork then a magical Elven Chain should gain no further bonuses, in which case I suggest putting Col81 as -4 to balance the doubled masterwork bonuses. I am currently preferring the latter but would still like to hear your views. I think giving Barbarian armor a Masterwork flag may be a design decision which gives it the quality of Masterwork Studded Leather. Not necessarily a bad idea, IMHO. I just feel that we shouldn't alter too many things that we are not absolutely sure of. If there is a strong reason, I'm sure we can accomodate the change. Lastly regarding changing Masterwork Full Plate, which one did you alter? {6141}{Masterwork Full Plate Armor} {6230}{Masterwork full plate armor} are both already coded as ARMOR_TYPE_HEAVY If you are referring to: {6106}{Troll bone armor} I can agree to a certain degree. Certain bone armors are known to be of lighter weight than their ordinary counterparts while still conferring the same protection. Not sure whether this makes the armor one category lower but in the case of Elven Chain (these are explicitly stated as being light rather than medium armor) If there are items which I have missed, kindly state the item reference number and corrected values. Thank you very much for taking time to check protos.tab. I will pass the changes on to the devs when I can for incorporation into the 2nd patch.
Actually, I think not. I think that it reads armors with Enhancement Bonus as masterwork, not those with magical flag. So if all elven chains lose masterwork quality, they'll still be craftable with wizard feats and they would still get +1 bonus for being masterwork. I tested that both purple and green armors and without masterwork they both appear fine (just one skill bonus, can be crafted). It looks that, IMO, ToEE engine treats all items with enhancment bonus as masterworks already so masterwork quiaty itself is pretty unneeded (full-plate +1 doesn't have masterworks quality flag). So, I'm for sulution which gives them -3ap (it's less confusing for players and goes same way as for other armors). As for Is_Magical flag, maybe it's only used for detect magic purposes. So maybe it should be added to all 3 evelen chain armors considering that they all have enhancment bonus (none oif them is "ordinary masterwork evlen chain"). On the other hand this flag is lacking for some other items like some magical shields so maybe we should not touch it yet (until we know what it really does). Correct 100% "( )" values should be used. I'm for -3 option (but personnaly I would not compalin with -2ap option). And I'm strongly against -4ap with doubled masterwork option (confusing). Fell, if you are not sure, if it's design decision that leave it as masterwork. But somehow consdering that it's with same price as hide armor and fuctions as masterwork st. leather and can be worn by druids, I think both masterwork st. leather and hide armors are weaker. Still consdering that there are also some temple shields that are also cheap and masterwork (tumbling bugbears?), maybe it's OK to revert to orignal values. By the way it looks that only barbarian in barbarian armor will get some funny starting dialoges when encountering common folk. Ops! I didn't know it was troll armor. Well I guess that it shold be put back as medium (design decision, perhaps full plate for barabarians). It seams that in Co8 files (not in original game), that all shields values for ap are garbled (go from -1 to +4?!?), so they should be reverted back to original official vlaues (-2 for all large, -1 for small and buckler and -10 for tower). Note that 6061 and 6073 had 0ap from start, which should not be changed (Thromell's and elven shields). No problem. I think I woudn't noticed this if there was no bug with Co8 shields values (when I realised that even original values weren't good neither). EDIT: Something more about eleven items. It appears that evlen shields is, by the book, similar to milthril shield (lower ap and miscast chance). Now, milthril shields are masterwork, while this one is not. So it can't be crafted into magical shields (exept if using some exploit with magic vestment spell). So it should obviosuly get masterwork quiality. But then, it would need -1ap to balance out masterwork quality. Right? But, here comes a problem. It seams that for use by non-prof. charcters masterwork quaily "bonus" is ignored and only Ap is used So, such modified shield would incur -1 penality to attack for rogue or wizard for example. Of course this can be a problem for other shields and armors, but luckly 3.0-3.5 rules are not 100% clear does masterwork quality applies onlty to skills, or to non-prof. penlity also (both function of Ap). But, for eleven (milthril) shields and elven mail it's plainly stated that they have ap of 0 and -2 (so they are "non-prof. friendly") So maybe they should be leaved at these values (although it would give them free +1 bonus on some skills, but this can't be fixed). So at the end, maybe I'm for leaving elven chain with -2ap with mastweork removed and adding masterwork for eleven shields (while using "normal" ap for other masterwork and magical items).
About barbarian armor. Considering that officially, masterwork str. leather armor has ap of 0 (which we agreed that was error, should be -1), maybe barbarian armor is supposed to have ap of -2 and masterwork quailty. And then to be used by druids and later enhanced by magic (masterwork), since normally in game there are no masterwork hide armors available. What do you think? P.S. By the way, is there any official source for Barbarian armor (some DnD supplement)?
Here is modified version of protos.tab. Compared to last one, troll and barabarian armor are changed back to original. Elven shield got masterwork bonus, while elven armor stayed unchanged compared to last version (-2ap, no masterwork). P.S. Also I added the fix for masterwork X-bow (look another bug thread for details).
Tested and agreed. Ok. All changes have been sent to Steve Moret of Troika. Co8 values are overcorrected. Agree with the rest of your observations. Uhm... I'm really no expert on DnD rules. What I know comes mainly from reading the 3.5e SRD, some message boards and CRPGs (which in many cases do not really implement the exact rules). I'll just quote something from 3.5e SRD: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Darkwood Shield: This nonmagical heavy wooden shield is made out of darkwood. It has no enhancement bonus, but its construction material makes it lighter than a normal wooden shield. It weighs 5 pounds and has no armor check penalty. No aura (nonmagical); Price 257 gp. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It bears some similarities to Wooden Elvish Shield. It isn't magical and doesn't really mention masterwork. I'd probably accept Troika's implementation here.
The interesting thing to note is that in my 3.0 book (I use SRD for 3.5 too), for special properties of Darkwood (special materials section, not armors section) it mentiones armor check penality lowered by 2 and masterwork quality. Not sure is it changed in 3.5 But, I know one thing for sure. Darkwood doesn't do anything to spell failure chance. And eleven shields had 0% spell failure. Strange isn't it? P.S. By the way what was final status of elven mail (-4, -3 or -2ap)?
