Questions before I embark on my ToEE:Co8 journey...

I'm kinda new here so I thought I'd first just say hi to everyone and also had some questions about the Co8 mod in general. I'm really very excited to try the new content and experience the hordes of bug fixes, additions and modifications that I've read in the Co8 patch readme (I've never installed a Co8 patch to date). I did finish the retail version of ToEE using patches 1 through 3 in 2003ish(?) so I'm not totally new to ToEE.

So I guess my first question is what kind of a challenge am I'm I in for compared to the retail ToEE? My understanding is that I can now, should I desire, have a total of 8 characters in my party for this adventure but my personal feeling is that taking 8 characters will make this adventure too easy. I really really want a challenge here. So right now I'm really trying to decide between 5 and 6. Can anyone offer me some insight without giving any spoilers away? Should I go with the origional 5 or take on that sixth? I dont plan to take along any of the NPCs at all (and If I did they would not be in addition to my already planned 5 or 6 characters). What I mean when I say I would enjoy a challenge is that I would really really like to see more battles where the situation is life and death, where drinking that potion of bulls strength could have turned the tides of that battle, where I do take a casualty and have to ressurect one of my fallen party members in some of the tighter situations. So here is my party load out:

1) Pure fighter - solely intended for killing
2) Pure cleric - healing as well as crafting divine equipment
3) Pure Rogue (multiclass at 13 to avoid limitations) - disarming, picking but very combat effective too.
4) Pure wizard - Arcane element of the party and for crafting wands, weapons armor and other items
5)? Pure bard - party spokes person foremost , back up healer, and for his inspirations.
6)? Pure druid - extra healing , access to nature magics/abilities.

So will having both the druid and the bard make the game a bit too easy? Go with one only one of the two? Play on Iron man and take both? Both on normal and still a good challenge?

Any advice would really be appreciated as I'm just about to make battle preparations and move out!

tia

-Arius

 

Having a sixth PC should not make the game too easy, especially with the new content and fixes. I think you are in for a challenge .

The limitations on leveling a rogue above 12th level have been fixed in the 5.0.1 patch, by the way, along with a bunch of other fixes and more new content. You can find 5.0.1 here.

 

seems pretty similar to my current party.
barbarian - shock troop
rogue - flanker
ranger - flanker
wizard - spellslinger/crafter/archer
druid - healer/archer
bard - face/buffs
(all are either elf or halfelf)

btw this is my first run through ever without a cleric and a fighter in the mix somewhere. I think its a good party mix, some challenges some easy bits - some random number clumping both in my favour and against. and don't forget to turn fight defensively off or wonder why your ranger is missing so often

 

One thing I think I noticed when I ran a two-person party (a fighter & a wizard) is that, because you level up so fast (7th by the end of the moathouse) the encounters which scale to your average party level get wildly difficult.

Has anyone run solo through 5.0.1, I wonder?

 

This is my party makeup....

Ranger-archer
Fighter-tank + damage dealer
Cleric-pure healer/buffer plus secondary crafter
Rogue-dual wield for damage + the always usefull rogue skills
Bard-Spokesperson and backup healer
Sorcerer-pure damage dealer evocation build
Wizard-main crafter and backup caster

This is my first time trying to beat the game so i have been messing around with the npcs as well. Mostly Elmo and Ronald.

I'll probably stop using npcs though. I'm level 8 now and have done all the side quests, Verb/Hickory/Moathouse(drow) fight ect and it's been a little to easy. I'm sure the farther i get in the temple though things will change. I did kinda cheat though and give max hps per level. Odviously it would be harder if i hadn't. I also power gamed my stats. I don't use the console though.


On another note, does anyone actually use point buy? That would be the ultimate challenge it seems. They just don't give you enough points to spend to make a good character...You literally will need all the good crafting skills to survive. Each stat starting at 8 and only 25 point to spend is nuts. You can't even make a whirlwind fighter type build without gimping a couple ability scores. Aren't adventurers suppose to be better than normal people? Seems silly. Should start with 10 to each stat and 30 points to spend in my opinion.

 

I remember considering this in my previous ToEE experience but had totally forgotten about this detail, so thanks for the reminder as I probably would have had some initial troubles without it.

I really appreciate the insights here, alot of my concerns have been addressed.

@DrakeEB: to answer your question whether people actually use the point buy in system. Absolutely! I've never been a DM myself but to me its a very objective method for ensuring that all PCs are on the same calibre: preventing overpowered and underpowered characters.


Just for interest I thought I'd share how I will be handling the ability scores since I'll be the offical DM for this adventure too :mrhappy:

So I'm going to give each of my PCs THREE rolls under the basic roll option. If not satisfied with the first random set of numbers, I'll have the option to roll again but cannot go back to the previous if the 2nd roll turns out worse. Similarly for the 3rd roll, can't go back. If even the 3rd roll is not to my liking I'm always allowing the use of the point buy system as a last resort (although I totally agree with you that 25 pts. is not enough points at all so I'm using a custom rule of 28 points). It's made things VERY intresting thus far. In a couple cases I got lucky and rolled a nice set of stats, but in others I had to use the point buy.

I think this makes you consider what is important and what you think you can do without. Again no overpowered super gods like I had in my previous ToEE experience (I had some characters with two perfect 18 stats and the rest no less than 14 lol) but then again no character is so underpowered that the adventure will be too difficult. I dont think any of my characters will be "average". Even with the point buy my wizard will still have 18 intelligence (much above the average intelligence) he just wont have other stats very high. I'll not be using the max HP option either.

So.... now you've got me thinking again, with my 6 slightly-above-average characters and no max HP option, should I take on a 7th or even 8th character?

 

Arius, how many chars you have depends on your gaming skill and how much of a challenge you want.

My first time through, I played with only the base of five PCs. Seeing how easy it was (for me), my second time through I only had one PC with three NPCs. Further, I always have a Perm Death rule, meaning that any party death is permanent, even if the game allows you to raise/ressurect/start over. I did ok, but by the time I reached the 4th level of the temple I was running solo. All recruitable NPCs had died; there was nobody left to hire. Those humans were good cannon fodder though. :rock:

At this point though, I didn't need anyone else. I had found an item which was extremely powerful, especially for CG characters. With this item my elven wizard was able to finish the rest of the game solo, without dying. In fact, I was able to not only kill Z, But I and even C as well, and all of them in one go!

At that point I felt there was simply no challenge left, so I didn't play again for years until just recently. I started a party with a PC paladin and several NPCs. However my game was corrupt, requiring me to reinstall, after just installing it, and my save was ruined. I tried to play it all again but the spirit of the first game was lost, and I lost interest.

Now I am starting a new party of 5 PCs, with my own custom stat rules. You guys are complaining that the 25 point buy is too little? Well, I use a 15 point buy, although I have rules that give the PCs one extra point every level. Nonetheless, it's not for pampered gamers.

I have a few suggestions for you.

* DO NOT play Ironman. Imagine getting near the end of the game when suddenly your save becomes corrupt. Guess what, no backup save. All that time you've spent playing, all those days and weeks are now lost. You have to start over. Fun? Hell NO! Piss you off? Hell YES! For maximum safety, always make a new save; never copy over an old one. Delete a bunch when you get too many.

* NPCs are only really good in a game if they fill the lonely void that you, a single gamer, can feel when playing for hours by yourself. The Banter Packs for NPCs in the Baldur's Gate games add IMMENSE enjoyment to the game, and are a great reason to pick NPCs over PCs. ToEE doesn't have anything like this though, and the grab-looting of NPCs, filling their precious pack space with coins and never letting you see their stats or levels is just annoying. I recommend against NPCs unless you have a strong role-playing reason.

* I haven't played with six, but my understanding is that even though the mod allows you to have six, the game engine only displays up to five PCs on the bottom row. You'll still have six PCs, there just won't be a pic for the sixth. This may or may not be annoying for you.

 

If you can do that in co8 5.0.1 then I want to know! I can't do it with my party of 6. (And some proof would be nice too.. hehe )

This is incorrect, up to 8 PC's (and NPC's) can be displayed fine at the bottom of the screen when playing the game. You do only get five displayed when choosing your initial party upon starting a new game though but this is not a problem.

Being too generous with stats or giving max hp per level will certainly make the game too easy. I suggest that the only use for the max hp per level checkbox is for a single levelup if a char has had a long string of crappy die rolls and is suffering badly for it.

I've played with a party of 6 and currently of 4 (with the odd charmed monster) - for my next play through I may try just 2.

 

I've run through the whole game with only the initial 5 characters and never allowed any npc to join up and only ran into one snag. My party makeup was:

Half Orc Barbarian: Pure killing machine
Dwarven Cleric: Front line fighter and main healer, arms & armor crafter
Human Druid: Conjurer, wonderous items crafter, secondary fighter & healer
Elven Wizard: Main spellcaster, crafter: wonderous items, arms & armor, wands
Elven sorcerer: Spokesman, secondary spellcaster, secondary conjurer

My barb and cleric handle all the melee action. The druid acts like a free safety to cover flanks, conjure, or cover the spellcasters so they can cast without getting disrupted. What I've found that spreading the crafting across three people greatly increases the range of items available, and your crafters don't take such a huge hit on xp.

Overall I think that the druid has the most positive impact on the party. With their unique abilities to shape change into a giant, good healing capabilities, and the strongest conjuring capacities makes them a must for any party. Plus they have several spells that are only accessible (via memorization) by them for purposes of crafting certain items. With good gear they are very competent fighters.

The only snag that I run into is opening chests or doors since I don't have a rogue. Once my sorc is able to cast 2nd level spells knock is the first one I choose so I don't have to worry about opening chests. In the meantime though I use my wizzard to open locks as she always has a high dex for the AC and bonuses for using a long bow (her primary weapon). Only time this choice came to haunt me was trying to disable a trap on the 4th floor of the temple.

Many would think that using a feat slot on crafting wands a waste, and for the most part it is. There's only 1 wand worth making, but it will save a ton of money (especially early in the game), which is an identify wand. There are several other wands that are very appealing, though with my party makeup I never found the need to make them. All my characters save the barbarian have ranged attack spells or weapons. In cases where a battle is fought almost exclusively by ranged weapons I put my barb in front so that if any monster tries to get into the spellcaster line he can intercept and kill them (plus he always has a ring of free movement so never has to worry about web spells). With the wand crafting it'd be easy to create a couple lv 10 fireball wands to give to my barb and cleric.

 

As I said, this was years ago. I don't remember what version CO8 I had, or if I had CO8 at all; it certainly wasn't 501. If you want though, I can provide pics that I took at the time. Do you want me to go look for them?

I wasn't certain, this was what I heard. Clearly I was wrong.

I disagree, simply because as a purist I believe in fairness. If you had a string of high rolls, would you give yourself a 1? If not, then you shouldn't give yourself max hp after a string of low rolls.

@Osaka

Yay! I'm one of the tiny handful of gamers that love druids. I think they're awesome.

Locks shouldn't be a problem for your party. Just have the mage make a lot of scrolls of knock = problem solved. Also, IIRC (and I could be wrong again), I believe that the underused Open cantrip is very useful when dealing with traps. Just stand away and cast from a distance.

 

I found that taking craft wands as the wizard bonus feat at fifth level made the game a lot more playable. In addition to the wand of identify, which is probably the best use of that feat, I found that a wand of magic missle is a great replacement for the light crossbow that my wizard carried for combat when out of spells or when spells aren't called for in a particular situation.

With a couple of decent wands in inventory, the wizard can function quite nicely in combat as a sorceror type of spellcaster while reserving his memorized spell slots for more unique situation type spells and spells that won't be used as often, but are useable in one situation or another that you are likely to find coming up from time to time.

This also reduces the need to "rest" (summon wandering monsters), or return to base camp as often. Craft a couple of decent wands for combat, and for situations that arise most often requiring a particular spell, and your wizard can memorize less often used spells in all of his spell slots.

This has made my wizard much more of a "go to" character more in line with how I see a wizard. When the rest of the party is stumped, he has something in his bag of tricks for that situation, whatevever the situation may be, primarily because he uses wands instead of memorized spells for the most commonly used magical effects.

 

Actually, for wizards, I prefer to use their spell slots for day to day spells, and then use the Scribe Scroll feat they get for free at 1st level to create scrolls of things that only come up once in awhile. It's less of a drain on XP and GP to cast your most-commonly used spells for free and then use an item for the every once in awhile. That said, wands are pretty cost-effective (though less so in ToEE where they only have 20 charges instead of 50) nad having a wand of magic missile or fireball on hand for when the spells run out is a good idea.

 

Agree, Wand of Identify, MM (as high as you can make it), Fireball, Knock, and Stoneskin once you get deeper in the temple. Stoneskining the party up helps out a lot.

 

can't we change that 20 to a 50 in the protos?