We need quests. We need plot. We need story.

We DON'T need more powerful weapons. We DON'T need dragons. They would be neat, of course, but dragons for the sake of dragons is silly.
Why would there be a dragon in the temple of elemental evil? Why would a dragon care about what some silly demons are up to, as long they leave it alone (which they most likely would, unless they wanted to to create Draconians... but this isn't Dragonlance)?

No selfrespecting red or blue dragon would lower themselves to joining the temple. A black dragon might, and a green dragon might also, but it's highly unlikely.
That said, I COULD see a lesser dragon such as a younger white dragon being persuaded and bought to join Belsornig, but there's no way I could see any type of dragon teaming up with someone as lowly and desperate as Kelno, as insane as Allrem, or, well, as unintelligent as Romag.

A gun is fun, but not very likely to be constructed by any "normal" means in the world of Greyhawk.

What I'm getting at is that we need more story!

The premise of the game isn't to slay dragons, it's to stop (or help, depending on your choices) the advances of a demonic army.

What I think we should be doing is expanding on the plot and story surrounding this premise, and not add too much content and too many unrelated sidequests.

Liv's mod is (also) excellent in the aspect that it does just that; fleshes out some of the main characters, and adds quests and content that is either directly or indirectly related to the main story.
We need more of this.

I have some ideas about some quests and content that could be added, but I'm no scripter/programmer, and I have little time to learn how to become one. As it is, I can just barely figure out how to edit the dialogue files in notepad.

What I am, however, is something of a grammer nazi (when I have to be), a literature and philosophy student, a lyricist/songwriter, proof-reader, website editor and music reviewer.
In other words, I can write. I'm not perfect by any means, but I'm decent enough. At least I think so, despite English not being my first language.


Now, there are a lot of open and loose ends, not to mention huge plot holes, that could potentially lead to a more elaborate story and intricate plot (and less fed-ex'ing).

Some of the things I've thought about include:
1. Some of you have already mentioned Lareth, Smigmal and Falrinth, and the faction they represent.
Where are the rest of the servants of Lloth and what exactly is it they're doing to take Iuz' and Zuggy's power for their own?
I know they're trying to harness the Orb, but this could really be expanded upon greatly.
As such, I've only seen Lareth's rather pathetic band of mercenaries, Smigmal's brigands and Falrinth's quasit. I didn't really see how they could ever even HOPE to be a threat to the temple, the way they were carrying about. There must have been someone they were answering to. None of them were cunning enough to orchestrate an infiltration as elaborate as this. Lareth might have been, but why the #$% would he then expose himself to danger like he did by surrounding himself with some very plain mercenaries and one very stupid ogre? Especially since he should have been warned by falrinth's (and his own) spies by the time the PCs get to the moathouse. This should, of course, depend on the amount of quests the PCs have done, and how much attention they've brought to themselves, before deciding to go to the moathouse, but still.

2.A What happened to Darley's group? Who were they, what was their purpose and why? Where are they now, are they still alive? Is it possible that there are more where they came from?
2.B Could there even be more planewalking parties that are trying to infiltrate and/or destroy the temple for whatever purpose they have? I'm thinking there could be a sidequest in which the PC party encounters someone from a different world, with plans of their own for the temple. A group of giths? A cambion and his not so merry band of planewalking minions/followers? A band of celestials or half-celestials?

3. If Cujo's gun could or should be included in the game as a quest item/easter egg, this could be a plausible way for it to happen without breaking the player's suspension of disbelief. Heh, how about an encounter with one of The Nameless One's (from Planescape: Torment) many incarnations as part of this?

I'd personally like more content that really gives the player a sense of "holy @#$%, this temple is where it's at!" by showing how much extraplanar and divine/unholy attention the temple has started gathering.

It should be noted though, that the most important thing about adding additional content, and elaborating the plot and story, is that it should not get in the way of the overall flow of the game. It should add to it, even feel as though it SHOULD be there, instead of feeling like all the sidequests and events are just a detraction/distraction from the main plot.

Of course, I could also just wait til NWN2 comes out and start writing my own modules for that instead

 

My advice, if you don't like it fix it, thats the reason I've released a mod, I wasn't happy with certain things and it went from there. I didn't know anything about scripting or modding but people here will tell you if you ask.

the special items that I added are hopfully getting quests added for them...

Lord spike has something to say about the gun;

 

Yup, D&D is full of anachronisms, and for that matter Gary Gygax was and is the king of the munchkins. I like the gun, and the new armor is fantastic. The new hair is a very nice change as well.

That said, I agree that more powerful items and uber-monsters are not what ToEE needs most. It was the additional and expanded dialog and the new (intelligent) quests that made Liv's mod rock.

I also agree that pointing out what other people should do is always easy; making something yourself is the hard part.

 

Well, yes. Hehe.
What I was getting at though, was that I'd really like to help out with writing the actual dialogue and designing the quests.

Anyone want to team up?

 

check out the general modding forum, and Lord Spike seems to know lots of bit and pieces that could make the game fun story wise, he's not really a modder but has great ideas...
I also have ideas but I'm not sure how D&D they are, it all depends on what book I'm reading at the moment, I'm re-reading my book on norse mythology at the moment, other books/authors I get ideas from are steven king, terry pratchet, Grimms tales, david gemmell, raymond e.feist, narnia stories, lewis carrol, LoTR, a song of ice and fire, the earthsea quartet, robbin hobb...
I've also got two forgoten realms books, books 1&2 of songs and swords

 

All of those authors are fantastic. David Gemmell and Terry Pratchett are my favorite fantasy authors, with George R.R. Martin (Song of Ice and Fire) not far behind.

Pratchett's stuff is much more D&D than Gemmell's, but either could port well concept wise into a D&D campaign.

The most important thing from a game mechanics point of view is to keep new items and spells in the same power range as the stuff already in the game; every high-power item added means you need another high-power monster or fight to keep the game challenging, and eventually you end up with every punk mercenary waving +5 swords.

 

Yeah and a rusty longsword becomes a unique item. My problem is that I tend to overpower stuff by accident cos I've got no idea what it should be in the first place, so pointers are always good.

 

Well, with all the mods availible the game growes..

It's still a challenging game as it is, especially if you choose a 'Non-Good' party build..

Read about Dragons, they are cool, and should be there, in Greyhawk, IMO.., but what if you fail a Quest, or do something bad (via dialouge), and are hunted by diff. Dragons, or, half-dragons ?? As pure retribution like the Assassin quest ?? Could be done and implemented if you ask me.

F.ex. : you rescue the elves and hope for the blue mail bonus, but if you kill them after, or before, you are visited in the wild by a semi-mature gold/Silver/ bronze dragon seeking retribution ??

And whatever Happened to Ironman ? Max Hp's would be reason enough to start, no reload is quite hard IMO.

Mull..

 

May I also suggest:

Tarzan series, Edgar Rice Burroughs (the things he can do with a lasso, knife, bow, and the occasional spear);

Conan series, Robert E. Howard (no cheesy austrian accents, all action and conquest, and the origin of many things D&D, including the remoraz).

===============

As written, the original ToEE module had 3 white dragons, 2 black dragons, 2 red dragons, 2 dragon turtles, and a dracolisk; all were located in the nodes.

Murlynd actually had a brace of pistols which he obtained in his crossover to Boot Hill, a wild west PnP RPG; he could fire each 3 times per round; his special aura as a quasi-deity allowed them to function for him & him alone, but I think Cujo's Smyth & Westrealm bullet launcher is a fun diversion, especially if brought in with an appropriate quest, and isn't something like a 'ma deuce'.

Darley's group...she was once part of a demonic faction allied against Iuz. The group was utterly defeated, with it's members being banished, scattered or imprisoned. Darley was set to wander in the nodes, and she's allying with the group to effect an escape. So this story is yours to write...once she gets back to the temple, maybe some of her old friends become 'aware' of her, and plane travel to her aid...?

Followers of Lolth...their plan is to supplant the ToEE. But they lack the power and resources to do it, especially by force of arms. So, they pretend, and gain power the old fashioned way. Once in certain positions, they can strike against their enemies (...and friends) and usurp power. This is one reason why the Temple hasn't successfully acheived enough power to challenge the armies of light yet...they fight and squabble too much amongst themselves.

I've always said that a great mod would include the Scarlet Brotherhood. Iuz is trying to get them blamed for crimes against Veluna & Furyondy, namely the abduction and supposed murder of Prince Thrommel. It's the whole 'let's you & him fight' thing. Surely, they would know of this since they allegedly have agents in every court across the Flanaess, and send agents hither to discover the truth of who's behind it. This is the greatest, and possibly the only serious, threat to their existance, as Iuz is seeking to defeat them so his agents can operate everywhere. It also doesn't hurt his cause against Veluna and Furyondy to tie up their resources in a war against terror, so to speak, either. Iuz' plan is to dominate the Oerth and elevate his own divine status, starting with these realms. And then there's the other aspect of causing death and destruction for it's own sake.

The orb is the key to freeing Zuggtmoy. With it, the followers of Iuz can free her, and move his plans forward. The followers of Lolth can use it to destroy Zuggtmoy and forward the cause of their own patron. And the PC's can do the same, but without the whole evil patron thing. Future plans of Iuz include finding Igwlf (...or Iggwilv, as some call her), who was once thought lost in the abyss. How she figures into this is anyone's guess...

 

I don't know much about Conan but he was the inspriation for some of my armour and the greataxe range.

 

This is a neat concept that I've always liked: evil powers can become very powerful, but they're inherently disunified (or at least prone to be), and this can be their undoing when good unites against it. I guess the first place I really saw it was in Lord of the Rings way back when, and I was pleased to see the squabbling and infighting in Nulb and the Temple here manifestly holding the place back.

But then you read things like Salvatore's Dark Elf trilogy, where Llolth actively encourages backstabbing and treachery, so that only the most devious and cunning survive. This sentiment was also echoed in ToEE, where one (can't remember which) of the temple patriarchs comments that Zuggy likes the temples to compete with one another so that the strongest will emerge in charge.

So, which is it? Should good delight in evil's infighting? If so, why the heck are evil's deities encouraging it? Are they stupid? Or is it that if they encouraged friendship and support they'd just be good? Surely there's some other conceptual territory here they can occupy. I don't really have a point here. Just ruminating on an interesting dichotomy.

Philosophers represent!

 

D&D Evil is silly; people like it that way. It appeals to powerless teenagers who confuse “Evil†with “Not having to Listen to Mom†and angry twenty-somethings who think they’re the first generation to notice that people are often hypocrites. Then there’s the whole “Evil is Being Sexy and Dangerous and Having a Chance to Bully Instead of Being Bullied†crowd.

So, yes, Lloth is an idiot, in control of a nation of morons.

Of course, being Good in D&D means killing evil races because they have different hair styles and skin colors than you, and then looting the bodies, so really, what can you do.

Sometimes it doesn’t pay to analyze things too closely.

 

btw guys - what about portals to other (a)d&d worlds?
(it could be nice to spend a day in dark sun deserts,
evening in dragonlance (where you can fight any dragon you like)
and go to sleep in ravenloft (yeah, bite me baby ... )

 

We have had these discussions and debates before and it's an ongoing thing. I see the game at a crossroad. It needs new content(ala.Livonya) badly and this is generally agreed upon. There is room within the game for a lot of stuff. For instance, Lodriss the barmaid is lawful evil and there is this thing with Skole. That whole scenario could be re-written. I made Lodriss a recruitable npc, but I changed her to chaotic good. She could be part of the Lolth faction. The entire Waterside thing with Wat, Alira, Dala, etc can be totally re-written.
I made the widow Mathilde level 5 wizard and recruitable. She will join the party if they find her a handsome man. There's a lot of possibilities that haven't been exploited yet. If I can get the protos editor and .dlg to co-operate I'm going to try a bunch of stuff. I'm pretty tired of the same old scenes. I think Lareth is going to get some new followers.