Paladin's Cove beta release, and feedback

Long post for @Legion.

Sorry for the frustrating experience, but please keep going. It's feedback like this I am looking for, so I can balance out the encounters for the next release. Try to keep in mind, this is the first time anyone else except me has play-tested this mod. So you're one of the few venturing into uncharted territory.

Before I go on, I want to say that when I play-test, I usually play 3-5 characters. Also, I rarely craft except for scrolls. So it's not a case where my test group has crafted themselves into super-heroes. I also have a "3 buff max" rule when I adventure, so in that regard I also don't go into encounters as an indestructible unstoppable force with a million buffs. (whenever combat starts though, I do allow myself to buff more than 3). So, that's the power-level of my group when I test, just for reference. OK, moving on...

I think I MIGHT know what is making it harder for you, I'm just guessing here. I'm not sure what level your party is, but the size of you group may be leaving you a bit under-leveled for some of the tougher encounters in that part of the game. A group of 4 characters at 15the level (which is where I usually am at that point) is going to do much better than 8 characters at levels 10 or 11. If your average level is lower than I expected at that point in the game, I'll need to adjust my formula for when I spawn the baddies down there.

Let me go back and respond to each of your comments now.

Wererat Lord:

Spoiler

He has the "Opportunist" feat, which is giving him that extra attack. The original game is bugged where he can respond to his own hit with an attack-of-opportunity. (fixed in Temple+ ?? Not sure.)

His permanent invisibility is indeed a royal pain, and is intended to be that way. I found myself mopping thru those wererats pretty easily, even the ones with significant levels, so I added a nasty leader to the group. Two things to keep in mind:

1. His Invisibility can be dispelled, it's just a buff spell.
2. He is still weak-minded like any rogue, so Tasha's, Confusion, Charm, etc. are his weakness.​

Dragon, Nightshades, and others big-baddies casting multiple spells:

Spoiler

The most powerful of those free spells cast at the start of their turn are Quickened spells (Cone of Cold, Unholy Blight, Dragon's Breath), which are RAW in most case. Most of the others are buff spells that simulate innate abilities which are only available by casting a buff spell. So most of it is legit. But let me explain further...

Designing some of those high-level monsters was difficult, and impossible actually, because some of their most powerful abilities don't exist in the game. So I got... "creative" with their design, and replaced some unavailable powers with something else. I really did try to keep them as balanced for their CR.

As an quick example, for the Nightcrawler. There is no "energy drain" or "swallow whole" available in the game. (those COULD be simulated, but that's another story.) So, I allow him to cast a few low-level buff spells like Expeditious Retreat and See Invisibility to compensate.

The Beholder:

Spoiler

Oh boy, OK. Why does he have an additional +8 AC?

First, he was meant to be the "boss" of that whole level, so he needed to be a notch or two tougher than normal, even for a Beholder.

Secondly, in my testing he was just dying too often in round one, half the time before he even got a chance to act. This was very anti-climactic. One average level 13 Fighter with +6 Strength and +3 weapon gets +22/+17/+12, BEFORE any buffs. If you add in a few buffs like a bard's music, haste, prayer, bull's strength, or whatever, and add +5 to each of those numbers. He's basically hitting the beholder 2 or 3 times per round against the Beholder's AC 26. If two fighters get to act first, he's dead before he can act.

So, he got an extra +8 AC with the defensive buffs from his two nearby magic-using compatriots.

I can certainly make this be adjustable at the time of the encounter, based on the average party level.

"The Temple Calls" Quest:

Spoiler

You can leave that area any time you want. Just talk to the ghost and return home. As of right now, there are no real ramifications of how that quest ends. You can actually leave 5 seconds after arriving, if you want.

The end of this whole mod, chapter 4, I hope to create a quick satisfying conclusion for it over the winter. It will be heavily based on what you did "over there". But sadly, right now, there are only two quests left when you get back and go on to Chapter 4. A small one, and a medium sized one. So what you do over there won't effect much for your current play-through.

But, the lack of XP's and levels will make those final chapter 4 quests a lot tougher.

The speedup problems:

Spoiler

I'm not sure what to say about that anymore. I think the only way for me to examine and fix that would be to get one of your saved games.

 

Have you tried setting "Cast Defensively" for your spellcasters? Once you get a Concentration skill of 14 or higher, no enemy can take an AoO on you for casting spells. Also, taking 5-foot steps before casting help a lot, unless the bad guy has a reach of 10.

When you said that, I had a deja-vu of that happening repeatedly in War of The Golden Skull quest in Hommlet. It was right on the from porch of the Elder's house, in that first combat with the evil Hextor cleric. At the time, I figured out which spell was causing the problem, but alas I can't remember. There's a lot of NPC magic going on in that encounter, so maybe it wasn't a spell I cast, but an NPC spell. I need to think about it, see if I can remember.

Hey, that's great to hear!

 

Right back at ya, @marc1967! I'll go one at a time to make things easier haha.

Yeah... I should have figured that, I was just despairing because I didn't want to give up lol.

I also don't craft, and while having 8 PCs instead of 3-5 definitely slows down leveling, I felt like my power level was appropriate until the first level of the... well, you know. Suddenly, my ass was getting handed to me and everything became miserable lol. I do think it is just a balancing issue with that floor and possibly beyond. I believe I made it to the first floor at level 11, for information purposes; it might be wise to lower the average mob level by one or two levels, because the difference between "first floor of Spoilertown" and "outside/beneath the crypt" is stark haha.

Re: Wererat Lords, I just... disagree, man lol. Confusion and (Greater) Dispel Magic were both washes for me. Then again, if I'm underleveled relative to what you expect of a party at this point in the mod, that really could explain just about everything.

Re: multiple spells at once... I also don't use metamagic (even though I should), so Quicken Spell didn't occur to me. I guess that makes sense, and the creativity is certainly appreciated! (P.S. Energy Drain is now a spell in T+ )

Re: the Beholder... haha, you're mistaken, my friend. I'm not talking about one specific Beholder, it's all Beholders that have a +8 to their AC. A random one spawned in a corner of the first floor of you-know-where and while it wasn't hard to kill, it still took forever because of the inflated AC.

Spoiler

Also, is another Beholder supposed to spawn after the first one dies when fighting the Necromancer and Diviner? I remember one spawning directly behind my casters and being VERY confused lol. I just remembered that happened but figured I might not have been paying attention, but it really does seem like he just popped into existence at the entrance of the bedroom.

Re: "the Temple Calls", yaaaaaaaay I'm going home! Lol I'm actually only on Chapter 3, but whatever! I don't want to be there anymore haha. Thanks for the info on that! I'll probably just start over when the new release comes out.

So, uh, haha... funny you should ask. I was making new characters in T+ earlier today, and decided to reread the help entries for Combat Casting and Casting Defensively. Uh... I think I misunderstood those when I first started playing the game. I've never used them. But good news: I definitely will now! Lol

Thanks again for all of your help! I appreciate hearing your reasoning, and that you took my comments well. I was very frustrated, but I might just leg it back to Paladin's Cove and hang out there until the next release. Cheers!

 

Bug: Casting Eyebite dispels Haste (+other spells?) on the caster.

 

Bug:

Spoiler

In Chapter 4, killing the Trenn Commander in the Hidden Stronghold contributes to the Homocidal Maniac achievement, even though the party was attacked first. Please advise if this is intentional (either the party being attacked by good civilians, or the reputation that results).

EDIT: Alright, I changed tactics and went straight for him in order to chat instead of fight, and I find it a little odd that he attacks you instead of the giants if you end up aggroing the room first. Is that right?

Bug (possible related to the above): Mabon has placeholder dialogue in Chapter 2/3 and gives you a quest that is unable to be resolved. I know this is because it probably hasn't been written/added yet, but it still generates a quest in the log. Just making sure that was intentional, because it mentions going below the keep, even though the stairs are removed and you're unable to get there.

Bug: Asking Groulmorig Honorhelm if he has time for more questions after asking about his brother triggers the wrong dialogue ("Nice to meet you, Player Name", etc.).

Bug: In the Hidden Stronghold, initiating combat in the Pool Room while characters are pathing to a location within it can cause them to get stuck in the pools, soft-locking that character until there is a map change.

Bug (spell permanency): True Neutral Sorcerer in the party is permanently Deaf from my Cleric casting Holy Word, 8/3 rounds remaining. (EDIT:... I'll leave this up for posterity, but I did in fact forget about the spell that removes the Deaf condition lol...)

 

Can I ask what level most of your PC's are? It will help me figure out the balance problem.

I suppose I designed those encounters so that each one would be a major challenge, to prevent boredom. But I guess people like a certain percentage of their encounters to be mop-ups, with a small possibility of death, and every-now-and-then there's a really tough one. TBH, this is really easy to do at LOWER levels, but it can be tough to figure out at HIGHER levels.

Looking for feedback from anyone on that.

Also, before giving up:

Spoiler

Only the First Level has been spawned with monsters. That quest does NOT go on for all 4 levels of the map, if that's what you're worried about. You just have to clear level 1, destroy the 4 altars, and then head home. You don't want to miss the big dramatic explosion.

Rogue humanoid enemies are hard to take out with crowd-control spells like fireball, because of their evasion and high reflex saving throws. And when they are using invisibility tactics and have a fairly high AC, they can be very hard to chop up in combat.

The best strategy to use against them, at any level of the game, is an enchantment spell that effects their weak mind and lowish Will save. Tasha's Hideous Laughter should be a staple spell for someone in the group to have. I always make scrolls and give them to the other spell-casters who might not know the spell. That spell, along with any kind of charm/dominate spell works great. A bard's fascinate should work 90% of the time too.

I'll remove the +8, for non-boss versions. Although the extra AC should only really protect him against the final attack from a standard fighter at that level. It helps prevent turn-one kills from three direct hits.

Bonus beholder:

Spoiler

Yes, if you dispatch the first one too easily, his "mate" will fade in and on the other end of the room, seeking vengeance. Her appearance depends on the current health status of the party. If the party is very depleted, she won't show up.

 

That spell was Circle of Eight creation, which I adopted as is. It's designer got creative.

The RAW version requires you to pick each new target on a new turn. But the way Co8 did it was to select all targets on round one, which gave an unfair advantage to the spellcaster, since he could act on those subsequent rounds . To compensate, the designer of the spell applied the "Slow" effect on the caster. Again, this was not my choice. I just went with what was there.

So when your caster cast the spell, and the gets the "Slow" effect put on him, it dispels the haste.

 

Spoiler

Got it, now fixed.

He should not be triggering the Butcher reputation for killing him there for any reason. I've now added that map as an exclusion.

Also, I'm glad you discovered you can approach slowly and talk with him. I was afraid most people wouldn't do that.

It's still a WIP as to how he reacts if you attack without talking to him. At the time, I just assumed he keeps fighting you because he didn't want to "blow his cover", or he thinks "well, they must want to kill me too", or it's been so long he doesn't remember you, or he thinks you've gone bad, or some other half-baked reason.

I'll revisit and improve how that combat situation develops, if combat starts before you can talk to him.

Got it, fixed. That was actually fixed, many pages up. I added a note to the quest description saying the quest isn't written yet. Also, please don't think you have to read this whole thread, to avoid repeating an already reported bug. If you report something a second time, it's not a problem at all.

Got it, now fixed.

He he, that's pretty funny. I never ran across that one.
I'll have to add some kind of escape mechanism, perhaps in the dialog of each pool.

I gave the druid in town the ability to remove spell permanency effects, like Jaroo does in Hommlet. It will be in the upcoming release.

 

Ahoy! My PCs were level 11 when they reached the first floor, and leveled up to 12 while they were down there.

Also, it's too late, I already gave up on that quest. BUT, I'm definitely doing a replay for the next release, so it's not a total loss.

Re Wererat Lords:... I'm not trying to be snarky, but you also listed Confusion, and I'd definitely rather hit multiple enemies than just one (which is why I usually stop using Tasha's Hideous Laughter early on), but I'm telling you, either their Will saves are too high or they were too difficult for a party at my level. If Confusion isn't working, I'd have zero reason to have faith in Tasha's when both spells offer the same save.

I know how to handle enemies like this. My point is that they are too strong. I can't Dispel them, and I can't CC them. I can only bash my head against the wall until I got lucky. And the bug with Opportunist certainly doesn't help when they're doing 30 damage a pop already.

Re Eyebite: That's kind of... lame, but I guess it's fine. Good thing the Wizard doesn't need Haste haha. Should probably be mentioned in the spell description as an addendum, though, but I'm not pinning that on you haha.

Oh, don't you worry about that, I gave up on that too. But I am trying to keep an open post during each session so I don't keep spamming the thread with new bug reports.

Re the pools: Yeah, also worth noting that the normal "get out of the pool" dialogue only puts you back where you were when you got in the pool, which means if you were already in the pool you get stuck in it, so... yeah. That's fun.

THANK YOU for the spell permanency fix (and for reminding me to go see the druids, I keep forgetting to (UPDATE: Didn't miss much with the druids lol.)).

Bug:

Spoiler

The Lich in the Hidden Stronghold respawn is not a living creature, and thus should be immune to Phantasmal Killer. *cough cough* You're, uh... lucky I tested it. Yep.

Bug: The Extraplanar Chest Miniature that was found... uh, somewhere I don't remember... doesn't actually do anything. Unable to select it from the in-game radial like in Co8, and using the item from within the inventory does not work.

Bug?: Cloak of Luxwood cannot be dyed by Freyja, attempting to dye it triggers dialogue about not wearing a magic cloak. Intentional?

Bug?: Having Freyja dye a cloak causes items to move within the inventory, characters to unequip off-hand weapons, swapping to different ammo in the inventory, etc. My guess is that when dyeing a cloak, the game is basically unequipping everything, replacing the cloak with a different color, then putting everything back on by using the right-click function? It would explain why the Cloak of Luxwood can't by dyed in that case, since it's unique, but this definitely should either be adjusted or communicated to the player somewhere. I don't think very many players would think to check their inventories after dyeing a cloak, after all.

Bug: Disintegrating a Frost Giant (through Prismatic Spray, unsure about Disintegrate) causes them to leave behind their unique chainmail instead of their normal gear. I'm reporting this because the other gear (boots, gloves, helm, gold) was missing, and I had never seen the Frost Giant Chainmail when I had killed them and looted their corpses before, so it feels unintentional.

 

Bug:

Spoiler

Old White Dragons "Slipped on Ice" effect is listed as Fear on the character portrait. Also has inappropriate graphic vs. how ridiculously huge the AoE actually is.

Bug: Some items left after enemy corpses decompose have huge hitboxes (eg. Leather Armor, Longspear). The example I found was after the ambush at the Snow Sister Monastery.

Bug: Atrocious pathfinding in the bat/bug cave on the second level of the Hidden Stronghold, especially over long distances.

Bug: Speedup commands don't function properly indoors (I think this was the issue I was having before, anyway, they seem to work fine in Paladin's Cove).

Bug (but an unimportant one): Moradin's Soul Hammer is listed as requiring proficiency in Warhammers, when it is, in fact, a Greathammer.

Bug: Charged weapons do not have a listed number of charges.

Bug: I just discovered that my level 14 Paladin with sufficient Wisdom has Level 4 Paladin spells listed in his spellbook, but no spell slots to put them in.

Bug:

Spoiler

Using the Efreet Bottle near the Morningstar Inn and receiving all three wishes causes the white-haired Dockhand nearby to run around instead of walk.

Suggestion: To my knowledge, there are no recruitable arcane casters (such as Sorcerer or Wizard) outside of Kaleela the teenage bard witch, nor is there a recruitable Druid. If this is not the case, then disregard! But I think both additions (especially the former) would improve party flexibility if you're not like me and don't run 8 PCs.

 

Ahhh, I can now see why you are getting overpowered encounters. It's definitely the size of your party. But... the problem ultimately lies with my generic formula which computes the groups average level. This formula adjusts the average level of your party if you have more or less than 4 PC's in a group. Since you have 8 PC's, the number will go up. And this number becomes the basis for how powerful the encounters in the temple will be (they are spawned at the time you go down there).

So even though your group's average level is only 11, it gets adjusted up because of the size of your group. Your group of 8 counts as a group who's level is 17.6. Hence the tough encounters (and probably the wererat lord).

This could become a very long discussion, but in short, I need to adjust the formula at higher levels, so it doesn't add so much for extra PC's in the group.

At lower levels it's fine. A group of 8 PC's who are level 1, are counted as a group whose average level is 1.7, which works for gauging the power level of that group (and in turn how powerful the encounters will be). But it doesn't always translate the same at high levels. A group of 4 PC's at level 18, are going to wipe the floor with a group of 8 PC's of level 11, even though they are outnumbered 2 to 1.

I'll take care of this for the next release.

Yeah, there's not much there right now. Just a quick flavor conversation, some magic items to sell, and she can do healing/reincarnation.

I think that's an existing loophole in ToEE logic (fixed in Temple+ ???). Since the spell is Illusion, and not Enchantment, undead are affected by the spell. Plus the lich has an intelligence. It obviously should not work, but take advantage while you can.

It need to be identified first. I suppose it should have a different description before it gets identified like "Curious Little Box", or something like that.

Hmmm, I DO have all the different colors for the Cloak of Luxwood in the protos, but I guess I never got around to putting in the dialog. It's now on the to-do list. If you want to do it manually, via the console, you can just drop the current cloak somewhere, and us "give" plus the number in the list below to get the color you want:

Spoiler

{6889}{Cloak of Luxwood, Unseen}
{6890}{Cloak of Luxwood, Black}
{6891}{Cloak of Luxwood, Blue}
{6892}{Cloak of Luxwood, Light Blue}
{6893}{Cloak of Luxwood}
{6894}{Cloak of Luxwood, Orange}
{6895}{Cloak of Luxwood, Red}
{6896}{Cloak of Luxwood, Violet}
{6898}{Cloak of Luxwood, White}
{6899}{Cloak of Luxwood, Fur}

When she dyes something, the cloak you're wearing is destroyed, then the new cloak is added to your inventory, then a game function is executed called "attachee.item_wield_best_all()", which puts the most ideal items into the slots of your inventory. So your inventory CAN get quite rearranged sometimes. I thought this looked better if the cloak remains on your person and just suddenly changes colors. But yes, it can upset your current preference for where items are equipped. I'll probably change it to just put the new cloak in a nearby chest, and the PC can fish it out for himself. If not, I'll add a note to the end of her dialog stating that your inventory might have gotten upset.

 

I don't know how much this helps, and maybe you know this already, but for monsters the guidelines are generally that doubling the monsters increases the challenge rating by adding 2. There are caveats that it doesn't really work forever, and I guess there's some question about how good the guidelines are at all. But in that case, using the same rule for the PCs would make a level 11 party of 8 roughly equivalent to a level 13 party of 4.

In other words, whatever your rule ends up being (since it probably still needs at least a fudge factor for really low levels), it should probably be more like logarithmic in the party size.

 

@marc1967 This one's a Code Red, I was traipsing about the Hidden Stronghold and went to load back after I wound up at the Snow Sister Monastery, and four of my five regular saves have become corrupted and cannot be loaded into! These are not quicksaves; please advise what info you need in order to look into this. Also, can I override these saves safely without issue?

 

The "slipped" effect is piggy-backed on to all of the dragon's other effects under one spell called "Fear", which is his main effect. So, most of his effects appears as "Fear" over the PC portrait. It looks bad, and it's a bit sloppy and misleading. At the point I was making the older dragons and some of the other high-level creatures, and I was... reaching the very end of modding capabilities (both mine and the game engine's) , and did what I could to make them as functionally RAW as possible. It was a struggle, and took some wonky work-arounds. All I can say for now is "it is what it is". Sorry, there's no quick fix.

This is a known issue. I'm still currently investigating this, it happens sometimes. It was not a game-breaker, so it's near the bottom of the list TBD.

This is the same for any large open area in the game (fixed in Temple+ ???). For example, play the original game and try clicking a large distance at Emery Meadows. Same thing happens. The best solution is to move in small and medium distances. I think I'll just remove the pathnoding altogether in that cave. It will make movement straight and clean. The only drawback is you can't move long distance in one click.

The proficiency for "Greathammer" does not exist in the game, only "Warhammer". Both warhammers and greathammers work off the same proficiency. I think this goes back to 3.0 rules which were in effect when ToEE started development early 2000's. They never adjusted for 3.5 rules.

The initial number of charges are listed in the item's long description. "Mace of Smiting", "Staff of Striking", etc. There is no place where the current number of charges is displayed. That capability doesn't exist. Are you thinking of Temple+ ?

A 14th level Paladin DOES has the potential to use 4th level spells (which is why they are listed in the spellbook). But the number of spells usable per day is 0 (see page 43 in PHB). The only was you can memorize one at 14th level is if you get a bonus 4th level spell for high wisdom of 18 or higher. At 15th level you'll get to memorize one, regardless of wisdom.

So to summarize, at 14th level, you need a 14 wisdom to HAVE 4th level spells available, but you need an 18 wisdom to actually MEMORIZE one.

Is he still doing it after you leave the map and come back? Try it, he should be OK after you retrun. The "surprise" that happens after the 3rd wish causes a little chaos, and makes nearby NPC's get into that ready-for-combat stance, where they may walk fast or shake their fists.

Also, his list of potential wishes will become more interesting and numerous, if I have time to work on them. Right now, it's what I came up with the night I created that item many years ago.

This was intentional, thanks for noticing. Also no Paladin recruit either, but that will change in chapter 4. I wanted those 4 classes to be a bit special and rare around town.

 

Thanks, you're right. I used a linear progression which didn't work well, like it did at lower levels. What I'll do is make a unique formula for each level tier (1-5, 6-10, 11-15, 16-20).