differences between the module & Troika's computer game

Traffic has been quiet in the ToEE forum lately so I thought I'd try to stimulate some discussion. I got my hands on the original PnP module (T1,T2) The Temple of Elemental Evil the other day and I've been skimming through it. I was SHOCKED to discover just how many differences there are between the module & Troika's computer game adaption of the module. Some of the differences are:

1. In the PnP module, there is an unused road that runs from just west of the moathouse through the Gnarley Forest directly to the Temple of Elemental Evil (bypassing Nulb). Adventurers using this road have an increased risk of really nasty random encounters (e.g. Giant Spiders).

2. In the PnP module, there are some different monsters in the elemental nodes (such as 2 dragons of the appropriate type in each of the elemental nodes, Cloud(?) Giants, and there are no demon guardians (Balor Guardian, Hezrou Guardian, etc.).

3. In the PnP module, many spells have modified or different effects than normal when cast in the elemental nodes. For example, the spell Teleport does not work when cast in the elemental nodes (but the spell works in the elemental nodes in the computer game, making the elemental nodes a cakewalk).

4. In the PnP module, Iuz is level 32 (a level 16 assassin & level 16 something (I think fighter if memory serves me well)). A friend claims that the assassin class has the special class ability to instantly kill any opponent (and that the percentage chance of an instant kill increases with the number of levels in the assassin class). If this were true, then it would make Smigmal Redhand deadly because she is a level 13(?) half-orc assassin in the PnP module.

5. In the PnP module, the flaming long sword +1 wielded by one of the NPCs in the Temple of Elemental Evil is actually called Flametongue.

6. In the PnP module, Frost Brand is actually a longsword (it's a greatsword in the computer game).

7. In the PnP module, there's an Otyugh in the garbage room in the Temple of Elemental Evil (see page 70 of PnP module).

8. In the PnP module, the Fire Temple has 4 Salamanders and 12 mirror images of Salamanders (instead of 2 Noble Salamanders and 5 Flamebrothers in the computer game). The 4 Salamanders take about 4 rounds to fully form before they can start attacking the player's characters. Also, characters are supposed to take fire damage each round when in the fire pit (unless they have performed the correct ritual?) (see page 63 of PnP module).

9. In the PnP module, the NPCs in the elemental nodes (e.g. Taki, Darley, Sargen, Ashrem, Jaer, Grank) are not stated as being in specific elemental nodes (like they are in the computer game. e.g. Taki and Ashrem are in the Air Node in the computer game, Darley is in the Fire Node in the computer game, Jaer & Sargen are in the Earth Node in the computer game). In the PnP module, these NPCs are just stated as being trapped somewhere in the elemental nodes.

I don't understand why Troika was so faithful to the original PnP module for most of the game, but then has all of these differences. Some of the differences can be attributed to converting the module to third edition rules (for example, there is no assassin class in third edition D&D).

Another player mentioned that the PnP module Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil uses the exact same maps as the PnP module The Temple of Elemental Evil. This isn't actually the case. It does use some of the maps from the original module, but most of the maps in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil are new maps that are at locations far distant from the old Temple of Elemental Evil.

Gaear mentioned the possibility of including a new town on the world map that is between Hommlet and Verbobonc. I'm not a fan of exploring settlements in high-fantasy computer games. I HATED exploring the city of Baldur's Gate in the computer game Baldur's Gate! I HATED exploring the city of Athkatla (spelling?) in Baldur's Gate II! I HATED exploring Hommlet, Nulb, and Verbobonc in The Temple of Elemental Evil! I share Ranth's opinion - I much prefer exploring outdoor maps like Hickory Branch than dungeon-delving in The Temple of Elemental Evil. Having said this, there is only one settlement that I would be keen to explore in the World of Greyhawk, and that settlement is Greyhawk city. Considering that the campaign setting is called World of Greyhawk, it would be only fitting to include Greyhawk city (or part of it) in a future version of the Circle of Eight Modpack (especially considering that Greyhawk city is only a relatively short distance northeast of Nulb (past the Gnarley Forest)). Maybe in Greyhawk city is where the player's characters can meet the Circle of Eight wizards? That's just my opinion. What are your thoughts?

 

Not to steal Garza's show, but he did cite me The reason why I dont like exploring cities is because of all of the walking into houses and all across the town/city and not knowing what to do/say. I find it frustrating, and time consuming, to converse with a lot of people and hear their problems and not sure what to do about it. Perfect example is the mill's son that wants to convert religions, but his father/boss wont let him. I never understood what it took to get the quest completed, sometimes it just happened, others it didnt. I guess my biggest complaint is that I find the townspeople time consuming and tedious.

When I get to a new city, it is like starting all over, without any knowledge of anything. Then I need to go in every door, see if there are people, talk to them, hope they are vendors without problems, and then run to the next door. I feel like I spend a ton of time just 'getting my bearings' and not in the action.

Hickory Branch had a simple purpose, conquer. While it sounds brash, it allows me to not worry about what I need to do next. It also removed the 'where was that npc's house again?' questions.

Then again, I am an efficency nut in real life. So that is probably why I dislike cities.

 

Well as for differences, I will have to say Troika did a pretty fair job with the flawed game that was rushed. Do keep in mind that the module was a 1st edition ADnD while the game was tailored for 3.5. So some spells and classes were changed, some good and some bad. I had the experience of having read the modules before playing the game, so I already had some knowledge of what might happen and some of the back story. Still had some surprises as I played the 1st time, but was still fun.

I am sure if the game was more easily edited for player creations, we could add all kinds of new monsters, locations, and dungeons to explore. As it is not, I will thank the Modders who have the talent and time to have brought us what has been added.

Getting back to some of Gazra's comments-


1. In the PnP module, there is an unused road that runs from just west of the moathouse through the Gnarley Forest directly to the Temple of Elemental Evil (bypassing Nulb). Adventurers using this road have an increased risk of really nasty random encounters (e.g. Giant Spiders).-

Well we have some of that with WB and you c an skip Nulb if you sell Lareth's stuff to the Traders and get the assassin's map.

2. In the PnP module, there are some different monsters in the elemental nodes (such as 2 dragons of the appropriate type in each of the elemental nodes, Cloud(?) Giants, and there are no demon guardians (Balor Guardian, Hezrou Guardian, etc.).

I will guess that Troika could only add so many monsters tried to tie in some other boss's to heighten the Node comlexity.

3. In the PnP module, many spells have modified or different effects than normal when cast in the elemental nodes. For example, the spell Teleport does not work when cast in the elemental nodes (but the spell works in the elemental nodes in the computer game, making the elemental nodes a cakewalk).

Agreed, the ability to teleport in and out does make for a much easier strategy and challenge.

4. In the PnP module, Iuz is level 32 (a level 16 assassin & level 16 something (I think fighter if memory serves me well)). A friend claims that assassins have the special class ability to instantly kill any opponent (and that the percentage chance of an instant kill increases with the number of levels in the assassin class). If this were true, then it would make Smigmal Redhand deadly because she is a level 13(?) half-orc assassin in the PnP module.


This was one of the rules in 1st edition and one that was loved/hated by players. Theoretically a 1st level assassin could take out a 20th level Lord with one shot.

5. In the PnP module, the flaming long sword +1 wielded by one of the NPCs in the Temple of Elemental Evil is actually called Flametongue.

In 1st and 2nd Edition, a Flametongue was not just a flaming sword. It had a variety if pluses against all kings of foes.

6. In the PnP module, Frost Brand is actually a longsword (it's a greatsword in the computer game).

The default Frost Brand was indeed listed as a long sword in the DMG

7. In the PnP module, there's an Otyugh in the garbage room in the Temple of Elemental Evil (see page 70 of PnP module).

Guess you could use a carrion crawler with buffed up stats and levels.

8. In the PnP module, the Fire Temple has 4 Salamanders and 12 mirror images of Salamanders (instead of 2 Noble Salamanders and 5 Flamebrothers in the computer game). The 4 Salamanders take about 4 rounds to fully form before they can start attacking the player's characters. Also, characters are supposed to take fire damage each round when in the fire pit (unless they have performed the correct ritual?) (see page 63 of PnP module).


9. In the PnP module, the NPCs in the elemental nodes (e.g. Taki, Darley, Sargen, Ashrem, Jaer, Grank) are not stated as being in specific elemental nodes (like they are in the computer game. e.g. Taki and Ashrem are in the Air Node in the computer game, Darley is in the Fire Node in the computer game, Jaer & Sargen are in the Earth Node in the computer game). In the PnP module, these NPCs are just stated as being trapped somewhere in the elemental nodes.

I don't understand why Troika was so faithful to the original PnP module for most of the game, but then has all of these differences. Some of the differences can be attributed to converting the module to third edition rules (for example, there is no assassin class in third edition D&D).

Another player mentioned that the PnP module Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil uses the exact same maps as the PnP module The Temple of Elemental Evil. This isn't actually the case. It does use some of the maps from the original module, but most of the maps in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil are new maps that are at locations far distant from the old Temple of Elemental Evil.

Gaear mentioned including a new town on the world map that is between Hommlet and Verbobonc. I'm not a fan of exploring settlements in high-fantasy computer games. I HATED exploring the city of Baldur's Gate in the computer game Baldur's Gate! I HATED exploring the city of Athkatla (spelling?) in Baldur's Gate II! I HATED exploring Hommlet, Nulb, and Verbobonc in The Temple of Elemental Evil! I share Ranth's opinion - I much prefer exploring outdoor maps like Hickory Branch than dungeon-delving in The Temple of Elemental Evil. Having said this, there is only one settlement that I would be keen to explore in the World of Greyhawk, and that settlement is Greyhawk city. Considering that the campaign setting is called World of Greyhawk, it would be only fitting to include Greyhawk city (or part of it) in a future version of the Circle of Eight Modpack (especially considering that Greyhawk city is only a relatively short distance northeast of Nulb (past the Gnarley Forest)). Maybe in Greyhawk city is where the player's characters can meet the Circle of Eight wizards? That's just my opinion. What are your thoughts?

 

Ranth eloquently summed up the reasons why I also don't like exploring large settlements in computer games.

Computer games are supposed to be fun. When I explore settlements in high-fantasy computer games, it is usually more of a laborious chore than fun. Trying to keep track of SO many buildings and NPCs and quests can be really annoying.

I do take your point about if a settlement is "done right" in a computer game, then there shouldn't be any problem. Hommlet and the city of Baldur's Gate are great examples of how not to make a settlement in a computer game. Exploring ALL of the buildings in the city Baldur's Gate and doing all of those inane quests for the squabbling NPCs in Hommlet (as well as the vast distances involved in running around Hommlet) really tried my patience!

 

AHA!

RE: point # 7 The Otyugh. (many many years ago 1st ed.)

Aha ! My brother and I were talking about this last weekend.

He was playing a ranger in the party and I was the DM, we had a mild disagreement as to wether there was an otyugh down there or not.

According to john I had the otyugh remain hidden when they hid in the garbage room to avoid a random encounter.

After about three rounds all hell broke loose when the critter made multiple sneak attacks,
four or so, which of course brought the critters (bugbears?) they were trying to avoid.

Well now I owe my brother an apology,.....thanks Gazra. :twitch:

 

Speaking of "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil", I was able to pick up a copy of that and "forgotten Temple of Tharzidun". Before they were yanked from the PDF stores a few years back. Tharzidun was one of the few Gygax modules I never read back in my dnd heyday. I've onlybread the intros of each but if memory serves it seems that Those modules retcon some of the original Toee storyline (lareth actually a servant of Tharzidun or something like that). I wonder if other players would be interested in seeing some of those sequel modules mythology in future mod packs?

 

ps, the 4ED conversion also tweaks Hommlet, introducing a new temple to one of the 4e gods (can't remember which one)

 

'4. In the PnP module, Iuz is level 32 (a level 16 assassin & level 16 something (I think fighter if memory serves me well)).'

Multiclassing -- actually called 'dual-classing' -- worked very differently in 1st edition. You can't just add the different levels. 'Multi-class' referred exclusively to the possibility that demi-humans had of taking multiple classes at once. They were, however, limited in levels for most classes (except thief), and the initial advantage of being a half-elf Magic-User/Cleric/Fighter wore off pretty quickly...

As to dual classing -- i.e. humans getting to switch classes -- the requirements were pretty high: the character had to have excellent primary attributes in the new class, for instance. Moreover, if you were a Magic-user of level 8, and then became a cleric of level 1, you actually had to give-up all your M-U powers until you had reached cleric Level 9, at which point you recovered all powers of both classes (fortunately, when dual classing you started off with 0 ' Cleric XP', and the progression was as if you had just started a new character). You could no longer progress as a M-U, though.

That made the 'optional' bard class in 1st edition a particularly demanding class to take: you had to be first a fighter, and a thief, of levels 4-7, and only then would you start training as a bard, level 1. Weird stuff.

'A friend claims that assassins have the special class ability to instantly kill any opponent (and that the percentage chance of an instant kill increases with the number of levels in the assassin class). This was one of the rules in 1st edition and one that was loved/hated by players. Theoretically a 1st level assassin could take out a 20th level Lord with one shot.'

Though technically true, it was not such a useful skill. You had to study your foe for a few rounds undetected, backstab him (not as easy as doing sneak attacks in 3rd edition, had to be a melee weapon, etc.), and hit him. Chances of a 1st level character sneaking upon, remaining undetected and hitting a 20th level character were very, very, very slim.

'If this were true, then it would make Smigmal Redhand deadly because she is a level 13(?) half-orc assassin in the PnP module. '

Smigmal was a very dangerous character. As was Falrinth. The 10th level assassin dispatched to liquidate the party foolish enough to show, or sell, Lareth's stuff in Hommlett, however, was probably the most singularly dangerous encounter, particularly because in most cases your party would be only level three or four by the time the assassin came along. When I ran the campaign, I played him as a truly insidious infiltrator, who befriended party members and then betrayed them at the worst possible time (during the party's first assault of the Bandit tower on the ToEE upperworks). Near TPK.

Oh, fond memories...

 

Thanks for correcting me and teaching me interesting stuff that I never knew about 1st edition AD&D, matmaisan. I should have realized that a level 16 / level 16 character in 1st edition AD&D is not the same as a level 32 character but I plum forgot! I started playing Basic D&D in the mid 1980's, then I moved straight on to 2nd edition AD&D.

I guess that the Hunter class in The Bard's Tale series of computer games is based on the assassin class in 1st edition AD&D.

I am playing the computer game Baldur's Gate again at the moment and I have to say that 2nd edition AD&D sucks compared to 3rd edition!

Thanks for posting, matmaisan. It was fascinating reading your account of the ToEE game that you DM'ed - I have to say that I am somewhat relieved that I wasn't one of the suckers in your campaign that got taken out in the great battle against both the tower brigands AND the assassin!

 

If memory serves, vanilla TOEE called that sword Flametongue, and it had a different icon and model. Co8 changed that a while ago, though.

As for a lot of changes, I think they overall tried to make the game a little less insanely difficult than the PnP module is infamous to be. As for the nodes, they're just plain unfinished, just like end-game content in all Troika's games.

I also think you're being unfair to towns in games - maybe you just had bad experiences. Sure, BG2 had you around the city for too long, and TOEE's Hommlet was plain annoying until Co8's changes (like the sign etc.). It all really depends on how the game handles it. A lot of the time, constant outdoor hiking can get very annoying, too (IWD2 Fell wood, oh the horror). There's still games that make city exploration very enjoyable - be it Sigil in PS:T, Aleroth in Div2: DKS expansion, or Tarant in Arcanum.

2nd edition DnD feels a bit weird compared to third, but part of the problem is also BG's unwieldy RTwP mechanic that plain sucks compared to TOEE's TB combat.

 

@gazra_1971

Thanks for your comments!

'I have to say that I am somewhat relieved that I wasn't one of the suckers in your campaign that got taken out in the great battle against both the tower brigands AND the assassin!'

Yeah, it was fun to be their DM that day. The combat itself was less fun than actually seeing them realize that their usually paranoid group had actually trusted the one person they shouldn't have...

@Ausdoerrt

'As for a lot of changes, I think they overall tried to make the game a little less insanely difficult than the PnP module is infamous to be.'

Well, I think that the massive dungeon style of play aged badly, and that Troika truly attempted to modernize the challenges and the concept of the ToEE while remaining faithful to its feel. And although they certainly rushed out the game and the bugs were really experience-ruining, they actually managed to get out a pretty descent game both story-wise and in terms of game mechanics. I don't know if the PnP version was actually more difficult than the computer version: it was certainly longer, though, and it would have given characters too much experience if all encounters had been faithfully reproduced. So things got tougher faster in the computer version, but the number of total encounters was smaller, IIRC. A slight difference, such as humanoids having levels in 3rd edition, allowed for -- no, actually required -- encounters to be reconceived completely. And Troika did it pretty well, IMHO.

'As for the nodes, they're just plain unfinished, just like end-game content in all Troika's games.'

The nodes in the pnp version were also 'unfinished', i.e. there were maps, a general description of what should be in the maps, but no assignment of specific monsters, no overarching plots. They introduced some intriguing characters (some of which are to be found in the computer version), established a pretty hostile environment. Above all, entering the nodes unwillingly could often be deadly because there were very few ways to exit them. But what the party would find in the nodes depended almost exclusively on the DM, and whatever stories he/she wanted to tell through them. In my campaign, the node exploration was also the key for a campaign-ending 'retirement plan' I had for my characters: investigating the nodes allowed them to free a number of persons 'lost' within the demiplanes. This population of 'human sacrifice' victims would later on become the starting population of a village that, in their retirement, PCs would rule over... so they went around freeing survivors, collecting the gems and preparing for the final showdown with Zuggtmoy. As they survived that final confrontation, they were given authority over Nulb and, along with the node refugees, the party cleaned up Nulb a bit, and settled down there, where they remain to this day...

 

I just want to thank Troika etc for making the game. Personally, D&D isn't D&D unless it is world of Greyhawk. And! an extra special thank you to CO8 for all the effort they put in to make it fantastic! I own this module for first edition rules and playing this pc game brings back memories. I recently bought the game on sale at GOG, heard about the CO8 mod, went through a ton of crap (uninstall etc) to get it to work, then didn't fully understand how to operate the front end and thus made it all the way to slaying Zuggtmoy not realizing I wasn't playing the modded version. So guess what I did. LOL.

 

The 1st ed. Temple (PnP) was MUCH more difficult (though not quite 'insanely' difficult) than ToEE 3.x crpg. For examples:
-Characters discovering the Moathouse would only be levels 1-2, 3rd at most. The entrances to the dungeon level were trapped with falling grates -- once entered, the low level characters had to fight their way out with no rest or relief. Except for Lareth, there was very slim loot; and the only Traders in Hommlet were nefarious spies who sent a 10th level Assassin who would attempt murder by stealth -- poisen or whilst sleeping, after gaining trust and joining the group.
-In addition to the aforementioned Fire Temple Salamander situation, the captain of the Fire temple troops wielded a Rope of Entanglement which could effectively Hold up to 8 humans -- impossible to escape physically. The Frost Brand was hidden under live coals and protected in a Detect Magic-proof box that also contained a scythe-blade trap (lose a hand, no saving throw) when attempting to reach for the sword. In other words, impossible to find unless you knew it was there, and then lose an appendage for your efforts. (It's okay -- lots of live coals nearby to cauterize the wound.)
-The Earth Temple boasted 4 Earth Elementals "of the largest size"; as I recall, they all had around 80+ hp and did something like 4-40 dmg/hit. The loot was buried in 4 different places in the earthen floor and took several hours each to dig out by hand. Same with the Air Temple -- traps and Large guardians. (The characters would only be 4th level at this point).
-The Water Temple was insanely difficult. The Juggernaut, attacking first by surprise, could roll and crush for 10-100 dmg, or flail with up to 16 'arms' attacking as many as 4 characters with 4 attacks per, each doing 2-16 dmg. While engaged, the Zombie/Gargoyles would commence aerial attacks, then priests and bugbear troops would slide into reserve positions. The Temple guardian was some weird creature from the Elemental plane of water who cast an illusion of a Titan needing rescue from chains in a pool of water (which was actually highly corrosive acid), while mentally Dominating the player characters to jump into the 'pool' (of acid) to rescue the illusionary Titan. Death by drowning or by acid, take your pick.
-There were quite a few 'cursed' magic items just waiting for a new owner to torment.
-Finding Thrommel was nigh impossible. Killing him by accident was a distinct possibility. Obtaining Scather required surrendering Fragarach, which would only work in Thrommel's hand anyway. And Scather was very tame compared to the ToEE version; it was a good sword, but not great. The Frost Brand was 10 times better, if you could get it.
-1st ed. character level advancement was incredibly difficult compared to 3rd ed. Fighting (and winning) the entire temple and nodes, a group of 4-5 adventurers would be 8th level at most when advancing to confront Zuggtmoy.
-1st ed. had no nifty Feats like 3rd ed. Combat advancement was much slower, for example, Fighters increased +1 "to hit" every 2 levels, which is the equivalent of the Wizard/Sorcerer's "poor" combat advancement of 3rd ed. Additionally, a 'critical hit' only created double weapon damage, NOT doubling bonuses or pluses of any kind. (3rd ed "criticals" have potentially absurd results, my opinion). Monsters of equivalent HD, however, had distinct combat advantages.
-Ability scores for characters maxed out at 17, 18, or 19, (depending on race) period.
-Zuggtmoy was virtually impossible to defeat, being a god/demoness with spelllike abilities that activated merely by thought. She could, however, be defeated by destroying the Orb. But the Orb could not be destroyed until all the gemstones were found by searching the Nodes, which were nearly impossible to escape (except by luck and experimentation) once entered. The Water node was 90% underwater. The Node guardians of the gemstones were sneaky, sly, and could always fade away into the floor/walls of the node element. Constant Random encounters in the nodes nearly prevented effective resting for healing and re-memorizing spells. And didn't someone mention Dragons? and Giants? c'mon, we're only 6th-7th level here.
-Speaking of random encounters, there were two on the road between Homlett and Nulb, as well as one between Nulb and the Temple. The Temple courtyard was also full of encounters (every march turn) with nasty critters, hidden in amongst the rotted foilage and detritus.
-Once entered, the Temple forces 'grew' by constant recruitment, and if not heavily pressed, the adventures would find previously 'cleared' areas re-populated, and the temple armies steadily increasing. Once entered, traps and ambushes would be set. For being 'chaotic', the sub-temple forces were very intelligently managed.

.... and so on.
From what I recall, the only saving grace was that most human temple guards were "zero-level" fighters, which entitled character Fighters to 1 attack/fighter level. And the Ranger class (modeled after Tolkien's "Rangers" in Lord of the Rings) were devastating warriors.

Thank you for the thread! as it inspired that little walk down memory lane ... and I will now slip back into the shadows. In all, kudos to Atari/Troika for bringing to life a thoroughly enjoyable rpg, especially attempting to stay 'true' (as possible) to the original content. And there are not enough glowing words of appreciation possible to the Co8 modders who revived and rescued a bug-ridden ToEE from the waste-bin of crpg death and certain obscurity.