Questions about archery

Not following your math. In ToEE, both Manyshot and Rapid shot provide two arrows, both at -2 relative to your total "to hit". The only difference is that Rapid shot has one attack roll for each arrow (two attacks); whereas Manyshot is a single attack roll for both arrows. With Rapid shot, if the archer has a high enough BAB, each subsequent shot following the 'rapid shot arrow' is a cumulative -5.

Rapid Shot is for the 'stand in place' archer, usually protected by a shield wall or firing from relative safety behind infantry (thus the need for Precise Shot). The high rate of fire is very effective in such situations.
Manyshot, especially when combined with Shot on the Run, is specifically for 'hit and run' tactics and angling for 'sneak attack' bonuses -- or any situation (usually with Bugbears who have a tendency to 'Trip' attack) where the archer must stay out of melee range. Move, shoot a double arrow attack, and move to safety. A solo (or sole remaining) archer can defeat opponents like the Balor using this tactic. The Manyshot-Shot on the Run combo is extremely effective for Rogues (sneak attack) and Rangers (favored enemy). Moving out of melee range (while still getting a two arrow shot at point blank range) is also valuable against any enemy (or pack of enemies, like trolls) with otherwise multiple attacks, especially those with reach.

So, if you don't need to move, then Rapid Shot; but if running is the better part of valor, then Manyshot-Shot on the Run.

 

I don't disagree with your first point, but since at first level my archer doesn't have either the cash to splash on a composite longbow 18, or an 18 strength, I'd rather get the second (in my view essential) archery feat at first level than have a longbow immediately. Firing into melee without precise shot at low level is basically a waste of arrows so I want that feat available as soon as I can get it. If I'm building a rogue archer, I'll go with human, Point Blank and Precise Shot at first level, with as good dex as I can manage and a strength that puts me in reach of 18 once I pick up a +6 item (i.e. 11 or 12 to start). Since I can't actually use a Comp Longbow 18 until I have Hedrack's gloves or a belt of giant strength, I'm fine picking up longbow proficiency somewhere down the line, after Rapid Shot, Improved Initiative and not a lot else. If I'm feeling rich I'll pick up a Comp shortbow 14 as an intermediate, but at some point I'm going to buy a masterwork longbow 18 and build that to be my primary weapon for the rest of the game. If I'm really powergaming, Holy and Axiomatic are essential, plus some elemental damage, though I don't always have the alignment options; I do always make sure I have a source of improved invisibility for an archer build, ensuring most of my damage dice come from sneak attack. My own take on the archery feats is that you pretty much need PBS and PrS to function and RS is nice, much everything else is much less useful (generally because they're situation specific), but just because there isn't much to take later doesn't mean you don't want these as early as (humanly) possible. Waiting a number of levels until you can shoot into melee with minimal penalty (when in fact it's low level, when you are most vulnerable in melee and most likely to miss) seems far less optimal that having to 'waste' later feats on skill focuses because you already took the good stuff by level 3.

 

I'm playing a single-classed ranger archer for the first time and have gotten to the point where the lack of archery feats is a problem (12th+). Does anybody know how to change or remove the pre-reqs for feats? I'm thinking that if ranger archers had access to fighter-only feats, there would be no lack of feats at higher levels (weap spec at 12th, greater weap focus at 15th, and greater weap spec at 18th).

 

Assuming these feats work like they are supposed to, let's compare a 6th level fighter (full attack) without rapid shot, with rapid shot, and with manyshot:

No feat: +6, +1
Rapid Shot: +4, +4, -1
Manyshot: +2, +2

So, Rapid Shot in this situation would give you a -2 with the 1st shot (relative to no feat) and +3 with the 2nd (relative to no feat), for an average of +.5 PLUS a bonus shot (at -1 to hit).

Manyshot would give you a -4 with the 1st and a +1 with the 2nd for an average of -1.5.

That's where my math came from (the range I gave before is because the exact numbers change at different BABs) - Manyshot is always worse than not using any feat UNLESS you need to move more than 5 ft in a round. But my point before was that if you need to move more than 5 ft in a round, then you probably made a tactical error when you started the fight (assuming that you have played the game enough to know where all the baddies are going to be).

 

That's one of the reasons I use multi-class Fighter/Rangers. The higher level Ranger abilties aren't all implemented either, so 10/10 works just fine.

 

Except with a Fighter-Ranger you get a bunch of bonus feats so the situation becomes worse - instead of 3 wasted feats you end up with 7 wasted feats. I guess I'll just spend 2 of those feats on crafting for bracers of archery and one feat on something else like toughness (and maybe console in some extra hitpoints so that it works like improved toughness).

 

I've finally moved up to 8.1.0 and this subject has made me follow my usual route in creating a human rogue archer. I've just started a game yesterday and for my LG party I have a female human rogue with Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot at character creation. At 3rd level I took Improved Initiative and already bought her a masterwork composite shortbow Strength 12 (her Strength is 13). If I keep to my usual pattern I'll take either Dodge or Rapid Shot next followed by Mobility. Since I believe the point of this thread is to answer the question of 'what feats do you get for a high level archer if you take all the archery feats early', I hope to answer this question by showing that all of the feats chosen relate to making a solid archery character and that none of them are 'wasted' picks. We shall see...

 

Since you don't use Manyshot, I suppose you are unaware that your math is wrong for ToEE, so your conclusion "manyshot is always worse than not using any feat" is off.
Using your example of a 6th level fighter, the corrected math for Manyshot would be:

No Feat: +6, +1
Rapid Shot: +4. +4, -1
Manyshot: +4 (for two arrows, either both hit or both miss by the same die roll).

 

So far for my CG rogue:
Character creation- Point Blank Shot/Precise Shot
3rd level- Improved Initiative
6th level- Far Shot
IIRC the next feats are 9th level and a bonus class feat at 10th- if this is correct then Many Shot is next and Crippling Strike will be gotten at 10th level. I'll need to get to higher levels to remember which of the archery skills to get next...

 

I don't like Far Shot in ToEE. Most of the combat is at fairly close range. Or at least, has appeared to be so; I haven't always checked the rolls to see if I'm getting penalties.

I kind of like taking a couple of fighter levels on an archer rogue. You get longbow proficiency for free, a couple of bonus feats, and more HP. You lose a couple of skill points and delay the level 10 rogue abilities, of course. In NC I might go to F4 for Specialization.

 

First level is usually light enough on combat that I can wait until second level (i.e. when taking a first level of Fighter) to get Precise Shot. Since I mostly use elven Rogues, I keep FIghter and Rogue within a level of each other, right up until 20th level. Then I split it 9 Fighter/11 Rogue for the extra d6 of Sneak Attack.

 

I tend to keep my rogue well behind the lines of battle to avoid those tumbling bugbears that just love to target wizards and other squishy characters . As far as taking fighter levels if I were playing the vanilla game with the 5 party character limit I would think about it- taking Martial Weapons Proficiency would allow for the use of longbows though, correct? I'm trying to keep my rogue a pure rogue- now if we were playing the old Gold Box games then I would be using a dwarven fighter/thief instead of a human one...

 

Yeah, you can spend a feat to get longbow proficiency, or play an elf and get it free. But I prefer to take a fighter level and gain a feat in addition to the proficiency, rather than spending a feat.

 

Huh, that's interesting. So TOEE uses a -2 penalty for manyshot instead of the -4 for D&D? So maybe manyshot ends up being identical to rapid shot except you lose the extra shot.

 

Buckler with longbow never occurred to me, brilliant!