Gameplayhelp/hints/discussions

In ToEE, the Wizard gives up nothing as far as number of spells per day. Scrolls allow unlimited spellcasting of any level. He does give up a little as far as spell DC is concerned.

It depends on why you want the Rogue; in some parties you'll need all of those skills (when no one else has them), in others you won't.

I disagree. It's not an issue of "compelling" reasons; it's a game, and a not very difficult one. If someone prefers one mix of characters over another, so what? They can finish with almost anything.

I've completed the game with five rogues and with a trio of one Rogue, one Cleric and one Wizard. Maybe you've never used a wizard properly?

Again you demonstrate that you likely don't know how to use a Ranger/Rogue properly.

No, I don't.

Assuming all important stats are the same, here’s the difference between a Rogue 1/ Ranger 9 and a Rogue 1 / Fighter 9:

R/R has an average of 44 HP + Con bonus.

R/F has an average of 51 HP + Con bonus.

BAB is the same for both characters, before any feats.

R/R gains 54 Skill Points + INT bonus after character creation. Search, Hide and Move Silently are class skills for both classes, stretching those 54 points. Spot and Listen are also common to both classes.

R/F gains 18 Skill Points + INT bonus after character creation. Intimidate is the only skill common to both classes.

R/R gets 6 feats or special abilities of real value after creation (Favored Enemy I and II, Combat Style and Improved Combat Style, Animal Companion, Evasion) plus three standard feats. He also gets one minor spell (plus anything Wisdom gets him), and some fairly low utility abilities in ToEE; these are not a significant factor.

R/F gets 4 feats of real value after creation, plus three standard feats. All feats can be fine tuned by the user.

Armor proficiencies break even, assuming a Fighter/Rogue build with a high DEX using light armor.

Totals:
R/F has an advantage in HP.
R/R has an advantage in Skill Points.
BAB is the same before feats.
R/R has a slight advantage in feats and special abilities, offset by the R/F’s greater ability to concentrate on the player’s chosen feat path.

As part of a party, I’d say that it’s fairly even, with the edge going to the R/F. If you are also looking for a face man, the edge goes to the R/R.

As I posted, it's down to play style.

 

Sure. Anybody can use any character with any combination. But then what's the point of this thread? It's not a post your crazy builds thread... it's about offering advice to those new to the game. On those grounds I don't think it's helpful to suggest that people forget about Rogues and use a 9/1 Wizard/Rogue instead.

That might be valid if I had suggested that people forget about Wizards and build a 9/1 Rogue/Wizard instead because it's essentially the same thing.

I'm sorry if my statements were harsh, but I thinks it's a mistake to think that because you have someone who can pick locks then you can forget about the Rogue. First of all, the Rogue covers a wide variety of skills that no other class can substitute for. Secondly, the Rogue plays a unique and useful role in combat that no other class can substitute for. They aren't front line warriors -- that would be redundant. They use their Tumble skills to sneak around and flank opponents and deliver devastating sneak attack damage.

I'll respond to some of your points... but first off I wanted to say that the 9/1 Fighter/Rogue build is a pretty bad design and it's hard to imagine anybody who knew what they were doing ever using it. Your argument would be more compelling if you didn't compare against a strawman. But I'll respond to the comparison anyway.

"real value" is subjective. You've obviously counted many more than me. Simply counting up six feats that you might find valuable is misleading, because not all feats are of equal value.

This should be 5 feats I think. (1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th)

You forgot to include that the Fighter/Rogue will do more damage in combat because he can focus on Strength and wield a powerful two-handed weapon while a Ranger/Rogue must focus on Dexterity and use two light weapons. The Fighter/Rogue can also throw on Heavy Armor and achieve better ACs.

 

To clarify, I wouldn't suggest that people forget about Rogues. They're a very strong class. I just don't think they have a clear utility advantage over a Rogue/Wizard or Rogue/Ranger. If you disagree, that's cool too. The math can support either point of view, depending on how you build the rest of the party.

I agree with most of this. There's nothing like a Rogue for one-stop shopping as far as skills are concerned, and that +5d6 sneak attack can be used almost every round if you get the positioning right.

The other side is that you won't always need all of those skills in every party; If you're carying the talking skills in one character and the Search/Open/Disable in another, you're covered just as well. The Rogue/Wizard doesn't have that sneak attack, but with even basic casting and crafting strategies he'll be pumping out 9d6 almost every round against almost every target in a given combat, and the crafted items and buffs he can hand out will add somewhere between 2 and 9 (or more) points of damage to every attack the rest of the party makes. This doesn't mean that the Rogue is not a dangerous foe; but it's a mistake to write off the Rogue/Wizard.

Make your own comparison if you'd like, but I'd ask you to stick with a Rogue 1/ Ranger 9 for the other side.

Which is why I didn't count the Ranger feats that have no direct value in combat. Good feat choices obviously do make a difference; that's why I gave the Fighter the edge here, not the Ranger.

Only if you start with Fighter 1; that would cripple your Rogue skills.

Those two light weapons mean more if you enchant both, and staying DEX focussed helps reduce the demands on stats (Good if you use point buy or only like to roll once). This doesn't mean that the R/F won't be able to be tricked out to do more damage; he does have the feats for it. The pure Rogue would be doing more damage than either on average, at the cost of some BAB and HP.

Heavy Armor cuts into the AC bonus you get from DEX, and a low DEX Rogue/Fighter would again lose out on his Rogue skills. The highest potential AC in the game is the same for both Cloth Armor and Full Plate, assuming you use items to max out your DEX.

 

I'd suggest either a pure Fighter, pure Rogue, or a 6/4 Rogue/Fighter... depending on what you're looking for.

What exactly are the six feats you counted?

Nine (or eight) levels of Fighter will give you 5 feats. It doesn't matter what order you take them in.

 

"Depending on what you're looking for" is the main point.
1) The pure fighter lacks the ability to fill the Rogue's thieving role (Open Locks, Disarm Traps, Search) or his talking role (though this is less important in ToEE, and can be worked around somewhat with feats). He's not playing the same role in the party at all, so why make the comparison?
2) The pure Rogue lacks the BAB and HP that the Rogue 1/Ranger 9 gains, though he does get the full skill points of a Rogue and a nice Sneak Attack in compensation.
3) The 6/4 Rogue/Fighter isn't a bad way to go, but has slightly lower average HP and a Lower BAB than the Rogue/Ranger, He does gain Evason (which the Ranger will also gain), Uncanny Dodge, and 2d6 of Sneak Attack damage in the trade. Skill points are around the same; the Rogue 6/Fighter 4 has 16 fewer skill points than the Rogue/Ranger, but has 5 more levels without cross-class purchases.

Feats and special abilities. Favored Enemy I and II, Combat Style and Improved Combat Style, Animal Companion, Evasion.

You are correct; My miscount.

 

Effective use of Rage...

As either a Barbarian or as a spell [bard lvl2, wiz/sor lvl3](cast, sroll, wand).
The during and after effects for both.
How to make the best use of.

 

Barbarian Rage is a nice quick buff; it doesn't chew up your action, adds 4 to STR and CON, and lasts 3+CON MOD rounds. Best of all, it stacks with Enlarge Person, (iirc)Bull's Strength, and Belts of Giant STR. Have your Barbarian throw it on just before faceing a high end target and watch him kill things. Rest afterwards, or hang out of combat for the same length of time as you were enraged.

Don't use the Rage spell on Clerics or Druids; it turns off their spellcasting, which is rarely a good trade.

 

I've been experimenting recently, with the help of the console. I made Serena a rogue/wizard, and Meleny a druid/wizard and with some buffing from the console(things that would be available to them), and it worked out okay. Both miscast spells because of armour/shield so I went with bracers, rings and gloves of dex. Eventually, Meleny could cast fireball and call lightning and Serena still had good rogue skills. Got them both up to level 11 before end game. I think it worked out pretty well.

 

Unusual but effective characters:

Human Cleric of Boccob, go for all stats over 12 and for 16 or higher in INT, WIS, and CHA.
Domains: Trickery and Magic.
Starting Feats: Scribe Scrolls, Improved Turning.
Party Roll: Face, blocker, turner, crafter. With the Circle of Eight patch, this character wil have Diplomacy and Bluff as class skills, and has both the skill points and the stats to support Intimidate and Sense Motive, and even Gather Information if you feel like it. Bluff is also synergistic with Diplomacy and Intimidate, adding 2 to each after you reach Bluff 5. Add a Circlet of Persuasion and a Cloak of Charisma, and this character is almost as good a party face as a Bard (as much as that matters in ToEE), can destroy masses of Undead by level 4, can block while wearing heavy armor and carying a tower shield while using scrolls and items on the front lines, can use Wizard scrolls and items (have your wizard scribe him a stack of Fireball scrolls at level 5; scrolls in ToEE are cast at the level of the scriber, not the user), can use Scribe Scroll to maintain his own unlimited supply of Cleric scrolls to buff, heal and summon on the front lines, and can craft items, weapons, and armor.

Drawbacks: Specialists trump him in each of his rolls (Clerics of Pellor turn better, Bards are better talkers, Dwarven Clerics are better blockers, etc). Appraise will need to be handled by another character, probably the Rogue.

Overall: A strong choice if you want a party face character with more magical power and early defensive strength than the Bard.

 

It was a minor side point. Some people build a Ranger purely for a melee or acher role which is a particularly bad decision. I was meaning to point out that if you wanted a pure melee or archer character, then a Fighter was a better choice.

But yeah, that's tangent to what we were discussing.

Yes. And for a non-frontline, flanking, sneaking warrior that also needs to fill multiple skill roles... what's more important? BAB and HP or extensive skill points and the ability to quickly drop enemies with devastating Sneak Attacks?

The Ranger certainly has a HP advantage on the Rogue, but it should be put in perspective. It's about +1 HP per level if you roll normally, and +2 if you maximize your rolls. By 10th level this will have built up to a +9 to +18 difference. Which is great... but this character is not going to be standing on the frontline soaking up damage. According to the needs of the character, this is a minor advantage.

The BAB is more substantial. Sneak Attacks are worthless if you miss your target. But to put it in perspective, the BAB is the same all the way through 4th level. At 5th level the Ranger/Rogue gets a +1 advantage which then last until 9th level when it increases to a +2 advantage. Ranger/Rogues will also get their second attack one level earlier -- at 7th -- which is a big advantage for one level.

I don't want to downplay a +2 bonus, which translates roughly to hitting 10% more often, but I think the Rogue's larger damage output more than makes up for it.

Six levels of Rogue will get you 3d6 Sneak Attack, not 2d6.

Okay. Now let's assume that Fighters had the option to choose any of those feats instead of their typical selections... how many of them would regularly get chosen? I think very few. Which goes back to my point that the Ranger may get some bonus class feats, but they aren't necessarily as valuable as the combat feat selections of the Fighter.

No problem.

So to clarify: The Fighter/Rogue would get five feat selections and the Ranger/Rogue gets six class feats of dubious value. I think the Fighter/Rogue has the advantage here.

 

Just going to butt in here for a sec - I just recently started a new game using no rogues, druids, or rangers. I'm doing good with one of my wizards throwing his extra skill points into Survival. Yes it's cross class, but he's got a decent wisdom bonus to add to it. at 4th level his Survival's at 5.5, and i've yet to have survival fail on me.

If i really wanted to get the most potential from it i could have had my cleric with the high wisdom throw some points into survival. The extra stat bonus really gives the skill a boost, and it's rarely used anyways. Cross class is working just fine.

 

The last game I played I happened to have some extra skill points on my Cleric and just raised it cross-class. Her 17-18 Wisdom was enough to give it an early boost. (Survival is WIS-based.) It never got as high as a Ranger could get it, but it seemed to be sufficient.

I was always able to avoid encounters. I'm not sure if Survival does other things such as dictate the type of encounters and the distance you start from your opponent, but I didn't have any problems. From my limited experience there seemed to be no compelling need to have an extraordinarily high Surivival skill. A moderate score was adequate.

If anyone's had any different experiences, I'd be interested in hearing about them. But from what I can tell any character can be your "Survival" character. I doubt even a high Wisdom is necessary. This is probably a part of the game that could be improved.

I'll also mention, Barbarians and Druids have Surivival as a class skill also, so they are viable alternatives if you want a really high Survival skill for some reason. I think they both make better 5th characters than the Ranger.

EDIT: Just saw that Ravenot came to the same conclusion. The way the game is currently designed, Survival is not needed as a class skill. For the sake of the Ranger, I think changing this would be an excellent idea.

 

Which would be why I already gave the advantage to the Rogue/Fighter there. Twice.

"Dubious value" is silly word play; "Moderate value" is correct (and arguably also word play). All are abilities on a par with other feats, but they do lack the synergy you can build up with five more carefully chosen feats in a sequence.

The Rogue/Fighter is trading slightly higher damage for slightly lower HP, a slightly lower BAB, and fewer skill points (though he can get a slight edge on cross class skill purchases, the curse of a Rogue/Ranger trying to act as other than a scout). Throw magic weapons and gear into the mix for both characters, and they break even.

Making it a matter of play style which one you'd choose to go with.

 

Most skills work fine purchased cross-class in ToEE, with the limited exceptions of Open Lock and Disable Device; for those, one level of Rogue (to allow the skills to be maxed out and used on magical traps) is all you need to make them useful.
At which point, you don't need a full rogue in your party.