Trolls Goblins Giants Elves Dwarves

But I still say Tolkien was plagiarised by Gygax, Gygax got it wrong with the use of the term 'orcs',

did Tolkien then get it "wrong" when he changed elves and dwarfs to suit his story?

 

oops! my bad.

in my last post the top line:
But I still say Tolkien was plagiarised by Gygax, Gygax got it wrong with the use of the term 'orcs',
was suppose to come out as somebody else quote.

i totally think anybody can use these names in any way they want.
orcs can be pink and pass out pamphlets at airports.
gnomes can chase ambulances through fields of daisys,and
dwarfs can wrestle in the WWE

its all good.

 

gnosis means knowledge. i know this to be true.

so did gnome come from gnosis or from gnomos?

will we ever really know?
or more importantly,
will we ever really care?

 

Tolkien's elves...

...are just that: elves, not elfs. If it ever did appear in his writings, it was in dialogue by a character who didn't know it was supposed to be elves...Ted Sandyman, or perhaps Gaffer Gamgee.

----------------

Gnome? Of course, I gnome...he's my brother!

 

won in translation

this is the reason why the german translation uses the (completely new) word "elb". "Elf" is exactly the same in German, but "Elves" wouldn´t have worked...

P.S.: I´m believe that you, Rook Hudson, are a troll. Nobody can be that agitated about a mere word...

---
kindly excuse my poor English

 

ok. in LOTR: the return of the king, appendix f, chapter 2.

Tolkien writes;" it may be observed that in this book as in The Hobbit the form dwarves is used, although the dictionaries tell us that the plural of dwarf is dwarfs."

maybe he was using a funny dictionary, or this rule of spelling does not apply to elfs(elves). maybe he was not a professer of languages at Oxford, he might have fooled us all.
me i believe in equality, if dwarfs can have an f, then elfs deserve one too.
they have just as much right to the f as anybody else, please do not take they're f away.

if you do not agree, all i can say is:

get the f out!

 

I'm guessing he used the word "orcs" because it was a vivid word already established in the minds of his customer base. I'm guessing he used the word "orcs" because he wanted to be able to fight orcs in his game. The advantages for using the familiar and established are obvious.

And I'm guessing he didn't then and never has wasted a moment in regret over the confusion and distress that this choice has caused a few fanatics. In fact, as far as I know, there's only one person on the entire planet that cares.

Two reasons:
1. It's not a simple task.
2. Most people prefer the system how it is now, they don't want to change it, and they could not care less about your agony.

This was an extemely funny passage. Good job Freud. One wonders what aggressive psychoanalysis could make of your lifelong obsession with Tolkein's books and your raging Goblin/Orc fetish. I'm guessing you had a lot of Tolkein read to you during your anal stage?


The bottom line is you've moved away from persuading anybody that your opinion is important and you've begun to launch personal attacks at anybody who doesn't share your opinion. It's ridiculous and completely unpersuasive to attack anybody that disagrees with you as having an irrational d&D bias and being incapable of approaching the subject reasonably. I spoke up because I was embarassed for you. I thought maybe I could help you get some sort of perspective on the issue. But I can't, and that's fine with me also. Good luck in your crusade.

 

Oh... and for the record. I knew about Tolkein far before I was ever involved with D&D. I understood the Goblin/Orc thing from as far back as I can remember. Tolkein goes back to childhood; D&D I only got into recently so I could properly understand the rule system used in NWN. I've had very little opportunity to participate in PnP games. So D&D is hardly woven into the fabric of my life. There's no excuse there. I just genuinely think that your opinion is nuts. Sorry.

 

thank you for distingquishing me from our good friend Rook.

also, i would like to state that anything i post is intended in the spirit of good will. i truly believe that we all have valid opinions and feelings. no matter how strange some of them may seem to others.
if at anytime my sarcasim comes off as rude or abrasive to anyone, it is not meant that way, it is meant in fun.


p.s. my handle halarious, is not because i think i'm funny.
if you change 2 letters it becomes my real name.

(imagine the fun i had growing up!)

 

grr dwarves and elves. I'll also accept dwarrows for dwarves. Anything else is just plain wrong. Because I say so

Lord Spike - if you have the time, could you tell us some tales about the game world for ToEE? You write very well and I enjoyed what is on the Atari forums a lot. It will also save us from these semantic meanderings hehe

 

According to my dictionary both Dwarfs abd Dwarves are correct. In fact there is never any reference to dwarves in my book of norse legends, only ever dwarfs, the book's printed in 1953.

Secondly I was going to disagree with this statement but now I agree with it.

If enough people think in one way about something made up then it becomes true, you need people to get it wrong so that change can occur. Sometimes "Orc" would be the best way to decribe the creature standing in front of you even if it is only about 90% accurate

 

Gygax plagiarized everyone!!!

Are you guys still at it????

First of all, gygax orcs bear little resemblance to to tolkien orc (thanx for the grammar lession by the way). Tolkien's orcs were never pig-like, or course, later interpretations of DnD orcs were more like tolkien's orc, but whatever

Humanoid races were meant to be the antithesis of demi-human races (which were largely based on tolkien I admit). Let's not forget it was tolkien that gave us our modern template of elves. Before tolkienn, they were largely fairies in neverland. As a brother race to man, that was tolkien all the way.

Tolkien's concepts were to some extent based on celtic and norse mythology, but still, even those elves were more mystical and fairyland like.

Back to Gygax, he took every legend, myth and fiction and tried to put in his game terms. As I became a more sophisticated gamer (not sure I really want to admit that), one of the problems I always had was how to fit so many diverse influences into one continuity. I mean greek titans next to christian demons alongside celtic leprachauns paralell to St Georgian dragons intertwined with persian lammasu and arabic djinn................stop, my head was going to explode!!!! This is when I started to develop distinct regions on my main continent and other distinct continents. When you think about it, this mythological/ledendary/fictional hodgepodge we call DnD was (and I guess still is) a real mess.

Compound that with the fact the Gygax botched everything (Lammasu were basically angels and djinn were basically demons in persian terms for example). Pegasus was about the only thing he didn't botch, how can you screw up a winged horse? OK, pegasus was the last of the winged horses in greek mythology and they weren't actually called pegasi, but we have to settle for what we can get.

My point, there's a lot more to fuss about than goblins and orcs in gygax's creation, but we all still played in anyway, didn't we?

 

Why I am so concerned about this orc/goblin thing

I want to state why I care so much about this orcs and goblins thing. Some other writers on this thread have asked why I care so much and stated, as if proving some point, that I seem to be the only one who cares.

The answer is simple: I just don't like what Gygax did to Tolkien. To some my concerns might be trivial, even pointless. Why is that Rook Hudson so concerned about this orc/goblin thing, etc, etc. Because when something comes to my attention which seems like an injustice, no matter how small, then I speak out. In a work environment I am the office whistleblower, the person everyone else hates because most other people couldn't care less, can't be bothered, or don't like stepping out of line with their fellow workmates. But not me, if something is wrong, I speak out.

Of course some people are going to disagree with me, or agree in theory but then say, what's all the fuss about anyway. Well, to me, it's not the size of the injustice that determines when someone should say or do anything about it, its the fact that the injustice exists, period. If I was given a TOEE alignment I would probably be, on this issue and others like it, LG. No compromise, no retreats. It is not really about orcs or goblins, it is about righting an injustice. This is why I get all worked about it. Anyway ...