damn this game is hard

every monster seems to be able to kick your ass at the first levels. the bosses on the moathouse, the gnolls, the bears.

even the ogre insta deaths all my chars in a hit


i remember finishing this game when it came out, and it was hard but not this much.

does the mod make the game harder?

any advice? i find it frustrating that i keep missing attacks with +5 +6 +7 proficiency

 

There is so much advice, it's impossible to say to start. Everything from which classes to take, to which feats and skills, to combat tactics, to which spells are powerful at low levels etc. Most of what anyone could tell you is compiled in the Game Guide & Walkthrough thread (http://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8742) which gazra_1971 has passionately written and compiled. It's worth taking some time reading as many of the tips in there as possible.

That said, I'll give you my 2 cents. The first two levels are deadly, and I usually approach them with this style:

1) Do as many of the Hommlet role-playing quests as possible before venturing out into combat. Depending on your party size, you can usually get everyone to second level with those. Don't have any NPC's in the party when doing these as they will eat up your experience points.

2) DO, however, take some NPC's when you finally go out and get into combat. Elmo, Fruella, and Kobort make decent tanks to put out front.

3) Don't be afraid to hit and run till you are 3rd level. Do the Decklo Grove spiders, then come home. Do the Moathouse frogs, then come home. Do the Moathouse bandits, then come home. Make a small dent at Welkwood Bog or Emridy meadows, then come home. Don't try to plow through and "clear out the dungeon" in one swoop.

This should get you to 3rd level, where things are a lot safer.

Finally about the Orge. It's not your imagination. In the Co8 new content he has been modded to absurdity. Like you said, one swing insta-kills. In all fairness there are multiple ways to get by him and/or take him out without rushing into the room in a heroic full-on assault.

Here's some interesting data on the 3 different Lubash stats (paper module, original TOEE, and Co8 TOEE):

Code:

				attack	damage	HP	AC
Original paper module:		+5  	2d4 +5	21	15
Temple game, before Co8:  	+9	2d6 +7	40ish	14
Temple game, with Co8 mods:	+14	2d8 +15	60ish	15  (all as a raging barbarian)

 

It's a bit cheesy but you can just shoot at him from the stairs. It is unfortunate that he can't leave that room and give chase.

 

My advice:

1. Party composition, as well as individual character composition, matters. Look up some info on here about how to build effective parties and characters. You can't start planning too early with your characters' advancement. Proper feat and spell selection is particularly helpful here, as is multi-classing advice (e.g., building a barbarian/fighter character).

2. Early on, the key is to gain XP quickly. Towards that end, you can do a bunch of the Hommlet quests for quick XP. Yeah, they're tedious, but you can get some decent XP. Talk to Brother Smythe about extra stuff to do, and he should (if memory serves) tell you about Welkwood Bog. This is a MUCH more level-appropriate encounter for lvl 1-2 characters than the Moathouse. Personally, I think you should be level 2-3 before you take on the Moathouse dungeon, and even then, you'll need to play it smart.

3. If you can afford it, and you're using a wizard with good spellcraft ability, buy some scrolls to add to your spell inventory. For example, I picked "grease" early on, thinking it'd be more useful than it turned out to be. It's not a bad spell, but I could've picked a different spell that can't necessarily be bought and copied to your spellbook. The basic advice I'd give is, if you can buy it from the Guardhouse, don't add it when you level up. Some spells can't be bought there, and you'll have to hunt for scrolls for them or add them yourself. When doing this if you want to be cheesy, you can always save before copying, and then reload if you miss a spell.

4. My party consisted of:

- Half-orc Fighter/barbarian mix (My tank -- look for the thread "I wanna be a barbarian" or something like that for a good guide on leveling this type of character)

- Half-elf ranger (for ranged and close-combat)

- Human cleric (went with Pelor, and I think Good as my domain. Good for healing but also has decent offensive spell capabilities.)

- Halfling rogue (I just love halflings as rogues).

Using the mod, I also added a human bard because, well, I'd never played one. They're fun, good support class, but if you're sticking with 5 players, I wouldn't necessarily go with one. Still, they can make for excellent "face" characters.

 

Just make sure you bring a LOT of ammunition, especially if you're having trouble hitting him. Also, don't stand too close to the door... Lubash has some serious reach.

 

Sometimes he does, but it's hard to get it to happen.



Eventually he gave pursuit as far as the gnoll cave but the attacks of opportunity were brutal along the way so noone survived the test. interesting the gnolls just stood there.

 

Awesome snapshots!! I wonder why it seems to be unusual for Lubash to pursue?

Also, if I am calculating correctly, Lubash is 4HD + 4 levels of Barbarian + 2 Level Adjustment = Character Level 10

And let's not mention that Mersenne seems to let him crit a bit more often than he probably should - unless he has improved critical, which I don't think he does.

At any rate, I think an non-elite ogre - like the one found in Temple 1 - would have been good enough. On the other hand, watching a one hit kill of a party member is pretty cool and unusual in this game.

 

thanks a lot for the advice guys! managed to get to lvl 3 by picking exp wherever i could get it. then from there to 6 it was better.

the game did get a bit easier, but there are some challenges that are still ridiculous

like... the fire priest has a werewolf, a hydra, various mid level gnolls, a healer and obviously, himself!!!

all that in a small room! come on!!! how am i supposed to kill all that swarm?


also, due to who knows what... two weapon fighting and archery have become obsolete. actually my barbarian and sorcerer are the only ones doing some damage. ranger, rogue, cleric are nonexistant


ps: oh and i found a bug. when kelno sends me to bribe the bugbears to the water temple, when i go to find em they are just not there

 

I'll relate how I approached this room on my last trip through. There is no right and wrong answer, but this approach worked well for me. And all of this should be prefaced with an In-My-Opinion.

1) I cleared the rest of level 2 and also level 3 before going back and taking on the fire temple. It's the hardest of the 4 temples, and the extra character levels and gathered magic items helped. Level 3 is almost like a room-by-room dungeon crawl, and a lot easier than most of level 2.

2) I made a deal with the fire temple priest, and took one of his quests. I had no intention of completing the quest, but this let me roam about the room at will without being attacked, which presents an extreme tactical advantage before attacking. You can prebuff all your spells like Bull's Strength, Haste, Bless, etc. And you can position yourself exactly where you want. Start the combat with a good area of effect spell into the room. Fireball, Ice Storm, Web, Stinking Cloud, or whatever.

3) The werewolves are the biggest pains, as they have DR 10, and tons of hitpoints. Put your strongest fighters on them, or target with your most potent spells.

4) Don't rush in and let them surround you. I created a front line near the door and let them come to me in small one on one confrontations (a la the movie 300, see picture). Fighters up front, Tank with a reach weapon behind them to poke over their heads, archer and spellcaster safely hidden in the rear to launch arrows and summon monsters and run healing potions.




When you say the 2-weapon fighting and archery has become "obsolete", do you mean that they aren't hitting their targets very well anymore? If so, there are numerous factors that could be affecting that. Take a good look at your rolls history (the die icon near the bottom right) when these guys attack and examine the numbers carefully to see what might be making them less effective.


[spoiler here]
Regarding the bugbear quest.

Spoiler

I think if you have triggered the temple reacting to your repeated attacks on them, they all bunch together in the same room and make for a stronger encounter. I'm not sure exatly what triggers this - if is as simple as killing something in the temple, then returning for a 2nd trip. But the werewolves and the hydra are originally in their own room (and I think the Bugbears too, not sure exactly). But anyways, once they sense danger, they all bunch together on alert.

 

You can make that fire priest fight even harder if you first complete a few quests for him.
Then it is insane even for those who have played the game a 50+ times.
The hard fights later on was a request from many of the players so the temples were made to react if attacked and gather their forces in one Place.

A good things is that not all the fire Brothers and salamanders join i, that would be tough even at a much higher level.

 

Yes, the Temple went on Reactive Mode. As said, all the strongest groups gather together for the defense of the Temple against a major incursion (you). It happens if you kill any of the High Priests or select other high-ranking individuals. The exact conditions are in the Walkthrough, I believe.

The Temple fighting can be accomplished by clearing it out room by room, level by level . . . but you can also bypass the tough rooms for later when you go up a level or two. As well, dipping into the lower levels can get you better treasure to whack the upper levels with.

The Fire Temple fights are the hardest, though the Water Temple fight with the Juggernaut is fairly intense, as well. If the Water clerics were a bit tougher (2x level and good spell selection) then that fight would be really bad. The werewolves are a couple of the toughest single opponents. In my experience I've had to gang up on them -- and use silver, definitely use silver! (A big Thank You to Co8 for the Masterwork Silver Light Maces in 8.1.0) . . . I never go after the werewolves early 'cause it's certain death.

 

marc, that was a really detailed explanation, picture was really useful!

thanks guys!

btw, my problem is that im roleplaying this... and im noticing its not meant to be played like that, you have to abuse every single trick an advantage you have on the AI

(like, getting in the room all buffed up, weapons drawn... yeah, sure no one is going to suspect anything right?)

haha maybe i just played a bit too much tabletop dnD

im going to clear lvl 3 and get back there...see what happens

 

If you bypass the Earth Temple and head down to the second level, you can avoid triggering the reactive temples. This is exactly how my friends in college approached the temple when I ran it back in college. Of course, I had completely terrorized them with gnolls with longbows (and tactics) on the first level.