A few words regarding balance

My "lack of awareness" about you being volunteers was sarcasm. :yes:

I also know that serious and talented modders appreciate feedback so I gave it (also because I consider this an excellent project). This is not even a mod, this is a whole new game and I hope you found someone who's designing the gnoll and hobgoblin areas.

Well yeah.. they certainly shouldn't and won't balance the game around people going out of their way to use exploits.

Sure, being able to flee combat would also be good.
Although, I like the CR reduction option for random encounters better. If it's set very low it means 0 XP, right?

 

Yep, and it's completely optional so it shouldn't bother anyone who doesn't want it.

 

:hug:

 

More to the modders,designers~ this is my thoughts on this topic~


#1 Scope/suggested level statement(s). When an adventure is sold (book/box set etc.) usually it states on the box the levels its for and/or suggested party size. So (if its already there I missed it) For KotB maybe making some official decisions about this will help A: for players to know what to expect B: For balancing the mod as you go. Its still version 1 so I think its dam good over all for the first full release. By version 8 (where the mod pack is) You can be as good...or better than the mod pack in this area or others.

Party size... 4~6? 6~8? 3~5? Animal companions definitely change this dynamic. Soloable? Probably from a modders perspective you want to cater to all audience to have an adventure that can both be soloed and marched on with 8 plus animal companions and summoned monsters like some kinda army. but you should start with your CORE ideal party size.
Scaling party size~ There could be an option that the number of critters could be increased, so that if someone wants a larger party, they can have larger encounters. Or just for upping difficulty.

Party level....Abviously this game is for starting level 1. But what is the endgame goal? If the final encounter is BYTHEBOOK, what is the party level (considering size above) ideal for that encounter? If you pin this down, you can say upfront (when we make party) something like.... Adventure for party of 4~5 that will take you form level 1 to 12. Or something like that.
scaling endlevel~ Something that hasn't been done so well for TOEE even with mod pack ,is keeping the endgame centered n the original culmination of the adventure. If we are playing to level 20, it needs to be a full level 20 party boss....So either we need to add content that follows the endgame, or maybe like an optional version(s) of the final encounter. Like you could have your basic adventure, where you scale some XP, maybe remove randoms (I hate the idea of fighting randoms for less xp/no xp...also we are already flooded for gold on the needs of a lower level party fighting lower level encounters...so we don't need randoms at all. Why fight for nothing??? Just makes game longer/more tedious), cut back and/or nerf some extra contents or something...
Then you could have epic options, where different encounters have been beefed up, where the final battle (I am not even there yet, took my party to level 4 already) is beefed up or add content to follow it.

Personally nerfing early contents and giving us a bunch of battles with no xp rewards...seems less fun than scaling up the later content, so we need that xp and we need those levels. then just scale with party size for the number of mobs in the larger battles. I know easier said than done. These are just ideas/suggestions.

So far I think the KotB is really fun and interesting. Some kinds, some bugs, some annoyances, but overall its a very good rendering of an entertaining story. I think using the tools you have a great job creating an engaging world and fun to play game.

 

Scaling... no, just no.

Also, I know that most people wouldn't like fighting random encounters "for nothing" so I imagined it as an option.


One suggestion.
It would be nice to transfer the gnolls and hobgoblins to the orc caves, until you decide to include the orc tribe.

 

I know this thread probably passed its proverbial expiration date, but i wanted to touch a bit on charm.

charm, of course, in ToEE/KoTB is significantly more powerful as a battlefield control tool. I also believe the way charm is written in the handbook leaves the interpretation of "protect" up to the DM. However it's infinitely inferior as an NPC interaction tool. You can use the spell to gain massive amounts of information. But the degree of roleplaying detail required to pull this of in a computer game would be massive. So in the end, i think it balances out.

 

Why not talk to the Dungeon Master about the issue? A few fudged rolls and you'll be back in the 10' pole / hire meat shields business!

Seriously though;

I've just started KotB and aside from the sheer delight I've experienced at having new content to satiate my lust for ToEE, I have noted the balance issues. Tomb of Horrors this ain't! (Ok, that's an extreme example.)

Would it be absurd to suggest that in the meantime, those who are finding it too easy use these options:

• 3 PCs max. - choose your classes carefully!
• 1 NPC at any given time. And if they die, they die - get another one from the keep.

... ?

I think ShiningTed (whose soul - along with the other Co8s - I commend to the upper echelons of paradise) is correct in wanting to stick to the Book. Otherwise, we're not keeping to the spirit in which the adventure was written. And the purpose of modding this game has always been to recapture the essence of the classic D&D module, integrated into 3.5e as faithfully as possible.

If we alter the difficulty, the frame of reference needs to be how the adventure would be interpreted by a particularly harsh DM. Not sure how plausible that is though!

 

A few questions:

1. Has the balance situation improved in the last patch?

In particular, we have reduced the chance of REs (there should be about 30% less REs now), and reduced the XP reward modifier, so we expect that players would hit the CoC about a level lower, and perhaps a snow ball effect that would keep you from taking on

Spoiler

the Dragon / Axer

too early.

2. Does anyone use the Co8_Config.ini options? Particularly there's the RE CR reduction and the Charm DC modifier that should address some of the issues mentioned above.

3. In the new version, what level were you when you:
(a) Arrived at the CoC
(b) Did the gnoll / bugbear caves
(c) Entered the SoEC
If possible please also detail the exact XP you had.

4. Did you find the upper caves (gnolls, bugbears in particular) adequately challenging?

5. I'd like to hear more opinions on the tug of war between rules / module fidelity and challenging gameplay in the context of KotB the 3.5ed CRPG. How would you prefer the scales to tip? What sort of 'violations' do you consider okay / wouldn't notice, and what would be a red line for you?

We're discussing rebalancing, and this input will be highly useful (and influential ). Thanks!

 

a) I believe I was just 1st level when I arrived at the Caves (the Dwarf from the tavern brought me). I think when I killed the Kobold chief and took his brand, I took damage and had to revive a character. This prompted me to avoid taking brands from other chiefs later on (not realizing you needed them to enter the shrine) -- in the end I had to switch some flags to 1 via the console. Maybe have the brands do just a minimal amount of damage, and make it clear somehow that you do need to take the brands.

b) I think I was around 2nd or 3rd level for the gnoll cave and probably 4th for the bugbear cave. I do recall that the minotaur didn't put up much of a fight (I got him with Tasha's, as I recall).

c) I was 4th level entering the shrine, and just reached 5th right before the final encounter with Hegumon (if I spelled his name right). This means my wizard just got fireball and now I have no one to cast it on. Hegumon needs some appropriately evil dialogue, as well, he's far too polite and I had no idea he was the "final battle." He needs some nasties on his side, too, even if it's not "by the book" -- Gygax always wanted DMs to improvise!

Never did find the Mad Hermit, though from what I've read here, he's out there somewhere. And there's that big gap on the map for the Caves of the Unknown ...

 

If you need ways to siphon off surplus gold then use the old 2E AD&D rule for Paladins:
"A Paladin must tithe to whatever charitable, religious institution of lawful good alignment he serves. A tithe is 10% of the paladin´s income, whether coins, jewels, magical items, wages, rewards or taxes. It must be paid immediately."

So if a Paladin is in the party and the party enters a LG church/temple/shrine there should be the option to donate 10% of the Paladins gold (which is his share of the partygoldpool) or have a fallen Paladin.

And for difficulty simply enforce the 3.5E rule for associates: "While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A Paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good ---> which would exclude nearly all NPC´s availabe. And the LG monk follows Gruumsh so I wouldn´t consider him an acceptable associate for a Paladin either.

 

The guild is decribed as taking fees from their members for the guild´s support too.
The first quest I accepted about the wife of the provisioner even mentioned "no taxation without representation".

If in doubt add Rust Monsters