Memory Lane - Vanilla level 10cap

I was wondering how a vanilla party could defeat the Balor and Zuggtmoy at level 10. What has been done to make these monsters so much harder?

My 3 PC party is level 7 and just defeated Hedrack. It seems the next logical place to go is to attack Zug. They do not have Fragrach. Otis(10), Y'dey(9), Murfles(6), Elmo(7), and Pishella(7) are accompanying. It's quite alright if people get killed, so long as it is possible to retreat from battle. They do not have teleport. They only have the book to the arena of heroes, but if that PC dies, are they screwed?

 

I don't know about retreat -- but you're right about it being tough. A lot depends on party composition and holy weapons. I ran a party of 5 Paladins through equipped with all the holy weapons in the game and they made short work of things. They had more trouble keeping the NPCs alive than they did fighting the Balor or Zuggy. Then again, 5 Paladins ain't your usual party. My 5 Gnome party (with Nybble, Gleem & Chandra) got squashed into Oblivion. My 5 Druid party (controlling the 4 elemental power gems, and with Kella & Zaxis) made medium-short work of things once they got going. My One-Roll Party (1 Wiz, 1 Sor, 1 Ftr, 1 Clr, 1 Rog, with Pishella, Kwerd & Ashrem) hit a roadblock at the Balor. My 5 Half-Orc party (with Tuelk, Pintark & Zaxis (half-orcs deserve ballads too!)) wiped the floor with all opposition. And so on . . .I've found that a lot depends on your tactics and how well you've outfitted your party for their particular composition of classes, skills, strengths and weaknesses. All that said . . . there's info on these threads on how to 'game' or role-play your way through. It's been written, 'cause I read it here, that you can sneak up on the Balor Guardian and steal his power gem . . . and then use it against him. I haven't tried it but somebody did. That's the beauty of this game for me -- that there are myriad ways to confront and surmount each battle. That's the fun!

 

My group only has two axiomatic weapons and the holy ranseur. I suppose vanilla was based upon the party using holy weapons and Scather/Fragrach. I have no idea how a level 10 evil vanilla party could do this.

They have the skull, but no power gems. Apparently the skull can be destroyed without them, unlike the original module (or has this finally been changed?). Is WotGS still dependent on the skull being intact?

 

I think the vanilla theory for evil parties is that they wouldn't kill her (there are dialog options for them).

 

Or you could just do this...





Then head for the door.

 

So, I wonder just where exactly the Balor was "carrying" that gem and did it have a funny smell to it?

 

I was just having a read of the gazra's walkthrough. I read about picking the Balor's "pockets" and that Zug appears not to have been modified over the various modpacks. Of course the original module did not have the Balor; perhaps this is why the elemental gems are not needed to destroy the skull (which I also learned is no longer necessary for WotGS).

But I wonder then what is the purpose of going into the nodes if the gems are not needed - aside from blood/treasure lust?

 

I think the earth and fire node each have a holy weapon that is critical for the final showdown. Unless you married Melany or bought the mace from Calmert.

 

Yes, I know that, thank you. My point is that from the point of view of the characters they would not know that. Since the skull can be destroyed without the 4 gems, the nodes are essentially optional.

All the characters know about the nodes is that people, Ashrem in particular, get sacrificed to them. Would they be thinking there are survivors in there? I don't really have that impression.

On a related note, why hunt around dungeon level three? My party did pick up a note, iirc, about the whelp of Mitrik, but is that really a strong lead that Thrommel is alive somewhere in the Temple? Paida is missing and Zaxis' sister are missing, but they could be anywhere in this dangerous world. Jaroo was not clear about where his agent was. As I am writing this, I thinking a party might realize that there could be prisoners somewhere, waiting to be sacrificed, but none of the prisoners on level 1 have any inkling of this.

Basically, I ran my neutral party as infiltrators. They went through the spiral staircase and met Kelno first, then joined the Earth Temple. They socialized with the other priests to learn as much about the temple as possible. That is how they learned about the Golden Skull. Although killing Alremm would have been a lot easier, particularly since they already wiped about Antonio and Tubal, I believed my party would want to effect an equal amount of damage to each temple so no one would be strong enough to rule. The decision was made to purposely botch Alrrem's quests and decapitate the Water Temple. They then used Kelno to get fast access to the Greater Temple where they learned about the disturbance. Since Liv's trap blocked the party from leaving (no PC rogue), which was not important since "a disturbance" somewhere on level 3 didn't seem a worthwhile diversion to wiping out the Greater Temple and its high priest, Hedrack. The party saw who was with him, went down the hall ostensibly to carry out his mission, buffed and came back fighting. I suppose they could now go check out that disturbance and bring Scorpp on board for the final show down with Zug, but they still have no other leads to other locations for more help.

The original module was a PITA to DM, and I think Troika did a great job fleshing it out for each alignment. However, why they removed the requirement for finding the power gems in the nodes is beyond me, other than wanting a balor in their module (which was not in the original, of course).

 

That's a fair point, actually. I'm at a point where I'm now able to explore the nodes, and in looking back on the game thus far...there really hasn't been a huge reason to do much of anything, from a narrative perspective. My party is Neutral Good, and found an amulet on a dead priestess. So, we take it back, hand it over, and...that's that. There's no reason for them to really do much else in Hommlet.

In terms of the narrative, I can think of better ways to get the characters to go from one place to another, even depending on their alignments. Hommlet has the potential to really keep people moving, what with several representatives of different factions being present in the town. You've got the temple of St. Cuthbert folks, representing law. You have Rannos and Gremag representing chaos/evil. You have Jaroo representing neutrality/balance. And you have the guys at the Guard Tower for goodness. You also have a bunch of other joinable NPCs who could help guide the story, etc.

All it would take is for these characters to provide more guidance to the PC party to get them moving. Some characters could act as "agents" (indeed, some are) but who give the party jobs the way Brother Smythe currently does. Each of them could be aware of the Temple or of rumors about the Temple, each eventually providing you with reasons to do any number of things (e.g. "Make sure you scour the area. We don't want to leave any powerful weaponry or magical items for the Temple to use." "When you clear out the Moathouse, keep an eye out for any documents or other information that could explain what they're up to. They may just be brigands, but there may be more at work here..."). Instead, the module really just figures you're gonna go do all these things because...uh...it's a dungeon crawl and you want to get phat lewt and XP.

I'm not suggesting you guys should change anything, either. Really, just pointing out that the game could provide characters with more context for their actions, instead of just "Let's go kill everything evil in that building, and take all their stuff."

 

Yes, I understand that Gaear - very funny retort by the way! What I am suggesting is that the skull cannot be destroyed unless the gems are put inside. The problem them becomes what to do about the Balor at around level 10. This is why I was asking about what has changed since Vanilla regarding the Balor and Zuggy.

I was reading gazra's walkthrough and I am a bit unclear about the different non-evil victory conditions over Zuggy. I assume the differences have to do with destroying the skull. But what about stranding her?

Regarding the lack of narrative to get the party out of Hommlet: I sort of agree. Everything hinges on Lareth. " He and his minions have been careful to raid far from this area, never nearer than three or four leagues, travelling on foot or riding in wagons of the traders from Hommlet. None of the victims are ever left alive to tell the tale, and mysterious disappearances are all that can be remarked upon. No trace of men, mounts, goods, wagons or draft animals is ever found." So, part of the silliness of the original module is that there are two separate groups of bandits: Lareth's careful group and the not as careful group above. Lareth's group, apparently, is not only interested in plunder but also in captives. So I wonder, what trail is there for a party to search for captives at the temple? What dialogs or other clues?

I offered the Mickey mod some time ago so a party of whoremongers could pretty much go straight to Nulb. Actually, it's pretty cool to be level 2 and having to be super careful. In this scenario, if Lareth is not even dealt with - so what? I wonder what the end credits say he does if he lives. In Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, he takes over Y'dey's job as herbalist in a literal ghost town (Nulb).

 

Not really Ted. I believe I only had to make a small modification to either Wat's or Rensch's dialog and maybe one more person there. IIRC, there was no issue at the Tower since Lareth is still alive. I can review everything again if there is any interest in this mini-project of mine.

 

I decided to have Pishella destroy the orb without the gemstones, as apparently the game allows. Yellow sparks flew after the dialog told me to wait, but after the visual effects the orb was still there together with the 4 components. Is that normal?

Edit: I confirmed that it makes no difference whether or not the 4 power gems are inside or not. The components remain in Pishella's inventory.