Nulb Ambush Slaughter

[ALL SPOILER, SO DON'T READ IF YOU ARE NEW]

So I'm doing a no-wizard and no-crafting run through of TOEE, and it's been a very well balanced and challenging and fun time so far. I always play the game as if the characters know nothing about the encounters, so no prebuffing based on what I know is behind every door. They just adventure very carefully and retreat when hp's and resources get to a concerning level, as anyone would who doesn't know what is coming next. I find the style of "beating the game" by knowing where everything is, and prebuffing before each critical encounter kind of un-fun. I even avoid things like taking Weapon Focus for a certain weapon because I know one is available early in the game. Although I think a lot of the Co8 stuff is based on player using the "I know exactly what is coming and I'm all buffed and ready for it" style, which is kind of where I am going with this rant.

Anyways, I carefully made it through Hommlet, had a few deaths and Jaroo reincarnations, and eventually arrived in Nulb. I did a few run-about quests, and the Imreyds Run which is always a cool hodgepodgey encounter. I carefully heal up before traveling back to Nulb to my new home, since they know that both the road and even Nulb could always be a dangerous place. So at basically full strength I open the door to our new house and the ambush is waiting for me at at much lower party level than I expected.

I ran through the encounter 15 times (partly to see how the AI behaves) and was slaughtered completely all 15 times.

Now I get the spirit of the ambush, and I love the idea, and Gremag DID warned there would be revenge, but I think any encounter where the party is at mostly full strength and gets leveled entirely 15 out of 15 times needs some evaluation.

Maybe most players don't think about the severity of the encounter anymore because they know it's coming so they wait till they are a certain level (and then prebuff Bull's Strengths, and Haste, and Prayer, and Protections, etc.), and they go in and out the door several times before the encounter triggers. But to play the encounter with full spirit of roleplaying, it's unwinable. No encounter was like that at all up to that case, as long as you adventured safely and smartly. They were all challenging and well balanced.

Is that the intention of this encounter? "Haha Gotcha!! Reload and try again in 2 more levels!" If so, it seems a bit self-indulgent and not really with the spirit of the original game."

Here are the numbers of my party that triggered the encounter (Level, Class):

6, Rogue
5, Ftr
6, Ftr
6, Cleric
5, Furnok
4, Kobort
3, Serena

That's about an average level of 5.

Compare with the encounter characters:

1) The seven ambushers are level 8 - 10 with maxed out relevant stats (assassin dex = 22, barbarian strength = 20, etc.)
2) Two spellcasters.
3) They are strategically positioned with spellcatsers protected and tanks out front, while the party is bunched up in typical haphazard fashion upon going through a blue icon door.
4) An assassin jumps out and gets a free surprise turn with no initiative, instantly killing one character every time with four attacks.

I compare this encounter with one of the most fun encounters in the game, and one I replay with each group about 10 times before moving on, which is the Broken Tower bandits encounter. Rolling in around 5th level makes for a classic romp. I think the witches are 3rd level or something like that. Contrast that with seven 8 - 10 level guys at that level just doesn't make any sense.

I want to restate that I fully get the spirit of the encounter (we had it coming), and for players that know the ambush is coming (which is probably most at this point), you can wait until you are the right level and trigger it while prepared and have a great encounter. This is what I will do with my current group, once I am 8 - 10 or whatever. But I think the level at which it triggers should be adjusted, or maybe the level of the ambushers be dynamic based upon the party level.

 

The game requires a group_average_level of 6 for triggering the encounter, which IMO should be enough to beat it, though perhaps not with every single composition / playstyle. Your party is calculated by the game as having a GAL of 6 in case you were wondering, which might be a bit of a corner case since it just barely qualifies as I see it (I think it would have been calculated as 5 if it weren't for Serena and Kobort, who are probably little more than dead weight and skew the calculation).

But really, if you find it too hard, you can just use Flee Combat, I've used it myself and there is no shame in tactical retreat Better that than to block it off for other parties / players IMO.

 

Are you saying that NPCs don't factor into that calculation? If they do, then the actual average is 5.0. If no, are fractions rounded up?

 

I hope I didn't imply in any way, either with my words or my tone, that the encounter be removed. It's a great fun combat scenario. Moving on...

How is any group of level 3 - 6 level dudes (even if all 6) supposed to beat a seven-man group of 8 - 10 level opponents who have a strategically advantageous position and one instant kill? (commentary below) I didn't "find it too hard", it was simply not winnable at all. I died all 15 trys, and would have died 100 had I done it. This would have been the case if I had crafted and had a wizard too. Just for fun I did massabset(40) for all my guys, and still lost one player to the assassin almost every time, and usually another guy died too.

I think a lot of the Co8 adds are meant to be more challenging, but from a perspective of maximum prebuffing, maximum crafting, and lastly knowing the specifics of that particular encounter - since you've been there before and it keep it still challenging when you replay the game. But this works terribly for first time players, and those playing with their group not having deja-vu precognition.

You should be able to stumble upon the ambush, even somewhat depleted and completely unbuffed, and be able to win it most of the time maybe with a death or two. If you either flee, or fully expect it, or wait till you are the right level and come in fully prepared, it turns into an exercise of analyzing the specifics of that particular encounter with tactical preparation. This is perfect for the Book of Heroes scenes, but for an ambush it destroys the concept a surprise encounter that catches you in an unprepared state.

I would like to see the enemies either be dynamically set, or lowered, or set the avg group level up to 9 for the encounter. Also it would great if the encounter happened anywhere at a anytime, like the Jeweler's shop in Hommlet, or upstairs at the Inn, or a random encounter along the way. It would really keep the players on their toes.

 

I think the reason for the lack of complaints by first time players is that it isn't triggered very often. It took till my 5th playing to get it, and only because I read about the encounter in the forums, so I forced the five different conditions you need to make it happen.

I'd love to hear people relate how they survived this encounter with an unprepared level 5 - 6 party, because the numbers just don't add up. An avg level of 8 - 10 with superior numbers and tactical positioning is gonna win every time.

I understand that if you reload, memorize the right spells, buff, craft, wait a few levels, grab Otis, etc., then retrigger, then you can ultimately win it. But that really breaks the flow of an ambush, and turns it into a static encounter.

Sorry I'm beating a dead horse here, but it really threw a spike into a so-far perfectly balanced adventure line, from Deklo, to Welkwood, Emridy, Moathouse, Book of Heroes (1 and 2), Imeryds, the Tower bandits, which were all spot-on balanced to perfection.

 

Hmm, i have never gotten the assassin in that fight, i always kill him before and i only get one of the traders.
Even then it is a tough and fun fight.
I would like to try the full force fight, could someone send me a PM with which conditions to meet for that to happen ?

 

Ok so i need them to get pissed at me for other reasons.
I think i tried that a long time ago and they just stayed in hommlet refusing to talk to me, but that could have been back in the vanilla days.
Will have a go at it before the kotb update is released.

Thanks Gaear

 

Marc, I think there are two things preventing you from successfully beating this encounter:
1) You're playing without a wizard. Stinking Cloud makes or breaks this encounter.
2) You don't seem to have embraced the "C" key. I don't know about you, but the very first thing I do when I enter a supposedly safe place and find a known enemy (with friends) waiting for me is ENTER COMBAT. Said enemy can talk, but they can do it while I have weapons drawn on them. That at least has a chance of preventing the assassin from getting an automatic kill, and giving everyone in your party a chance to get the drop on the bad guys (granted, this is more important if you have a wizard (see 1 above)). Missile weapons are your friends here.

 

More so if you let your bowman "ready vs. spell". If you can do enough damage they (enemy spellcaster) might not be able to successfully make their concentration check, which would fizzle their spell.

 

I have learned from the kind advice of people here to have your weakest PC click on all doors. That way this PC will always be next to the door - and, thus, at the rear - of any combat that occurs on the new screen/map.

 

Gazra's game guide actually shows you the location of each party member according to their position along the bottom of the screen. This can be very useful when you want your casters to appear in the rear when you materialize on the other side of a door.

 

I survived it, but I survived it prepped and with, I think, a roughly level 6-7 party. My first time through, we got hosed.

In general, I'd offer the following advice:

- Have both your mage and your ranged weapons users "ready vs. spell" when going up against spell slingers. I find that Magic Missile is the ideal disruption spell. It doesn't require a to hit check, and it's got terrific range (not that you really need it in the Nulb house).

- Pray you get the Random Encounter with the assassin on the road. It would SUCK to go up against that group when the assassin can basically backstab one of your guys to death out of the gate.

- Crowd control spells can also be very useful. I found that a well positioned Stinking Cloud helped a ton in this fight. Web is good vs. the melee guys, but it won't stop spell casters (I think).

- Party composition and specialization really matters. When I first ran this stuff, I did it with a tank who wasn't speced out particularly well (pure barbarian). I ended up dual-classing him as a fighter/barbarian and it made a HUGE difference simply because I could cleave. In close encounters like that, being able to cleave is really helpful. Good initiative and (if memory serves) Combat Reflexes can help too, since you can get AoOs.

- Summoned creatures can also help disrupt the enemy, if you have time and the opportunity to cast them. They help pull the enemy's focus and can buy you time to do other stuff.


Some folks here may not be tactical masters, but they are, I suspect, a lot better at character design than I am (e.g., picking feats and multiclassing). I came to this game from basically years playing the old SSI Gold Box games, and from playing through Baldur's Gate 1 and 2. Other than that, it's dimly remembered knowledge from my 1st and 2nd ed hardcover materials. How you build your characters can make a HUGE difference in this game, and after reading up, I found that I could've been doing a LOT better.

For example, the big Arena fight at the end was incredibly tough for me prior to respecing my Barbarian to a Barbarian/Fighter. Respecing my ranger's ranged combat feats (instead of dual wielding) also helped a bunch.

Anyway, things like this and a deeper understanding of the rules for this edition of the game can make a major difference in how easily a party can tackle a given fight at a given level. Folks here may say "Oh, that's for a level 6 party," but it depends on the party, and it depends on the player.