Question about Slavers quest

Yeah, that fat little rogue always tries to off the kids as soon as I start to get the upper hand.

I just tried this encounter with my pair of monks, yes just two and the rogue from Nulb and ... It did not end well for the kids, or us actually.

 

Advantageous positioning can be achieved regardless of slaver set up via invisibility or sufficiently high stealth, so I wouldn't bother moving them around.

 

Hi Gaear, don't get me wrong, I think you've done a fantastic job and I like the current set up of the slavers quest- even a compulsory PC death is okay (and knowing that it can't be avoided takes some of the sting away, as does knowing that actually you'll regain the XP eventually...).
My point was simply that repositioning the slavers to prevent what Gazra feels is an exploit and what I feel is merely making the best of a difficult situation (that is about to become more difficult) effectively limits the number of potentially successful tactics here, when we're at a stage where for 95% of players it's largely about the replay value and playing round with different teams. My current party would try to sneak in. My lawful good party felt terrible that their challenge was met with such brutality and were dreadfully upset that they couldn't offer to resurrect the slain children... If the slavers get to dig in like a toad under a stone when they already hold the upper hand, then saving the children becomes virtually impossible; for NG and CG parties in particular that's their primary objective gone. The option of a full frontal assault after dialgue is there for those who want, as is the option of preparing for the worst and pre-positioning to protect the kids; removing either option would seem to me to be a shame.
Simply walking across the bottom of the screen because you know you're *just* out of range to trigger dialogue might be an in-game exploit, but it makes up for the inability of the game to allow for more creative options to achieve the same aim of getting close to the prisoners.
To summarise: fine as it is!

 

No, I'm saying that the player can move visible characters along the bottom of the map around behind the slave traders. It would be incredibly unrealistic for the elite level 18 or level 20 slave traders to just stand there watching adventurers run around behind them into a disadvantageous position for the slave traders!

I have no problem with sneaking or invisible characters being able to set up an ambush (provided that each of the slave traders gets a Listen check to attempt to hear invisible opponents moving (opposed by the invisible opponent's Move Silently skill), and that each of the slave traders gets a Listen check to attempt to hear sneaking opponents moving (opposed by the sneaking opponent's Move Silently skill) and a Spot check to attempt to see sneaking opponents (opposed by the sneaking opponent's Hide skill).

 

Should maybe have made it clear that my comments relate to Gazra's 2nd point that is subsequently quoted by Gaear in his post just above mine, rather than to the whole scouting first/ pre-emptive attack thing.

 

I was thinking, (yeah strange hunh) that if I don't talk to them at all then they are the kids rescuers?

So, if I just get close enough to see them, I can go back to Wilfric and tell him "The kids are alright and on their way back with your A-Team. Then hold out my hand for monies.

 

Hi Gazra,
That's not unreasonable, except that in a real game there would be more options than simply trying to get past using move silently/ invisibility. I'm pretty confident that given the free hand of PnP I'd be able to find a way of putting at least some of my team where I wanted before the start of combat, even if some of the slavers had eyes of true seeing- especially against an opponent with a penchant for monologuing like Tarah has- in the way that other folk outline above. For various reasons they aren't available in a cRPG, which is understandable; however as things stand there is at least an option to simulate having done something other than wandering up, armour clanking, which I think is a reasonable compromise within the bounds of what is possible in the game as it is. The option for you to play as you wish is still there, the option for me to imagine I have used teleportation/ shapechange to an earthworm/ whatever to position myself for a battle that I would certainly prepare for by scrying etc shouldn't in my opinion be cut because you want to be extra-fastidious.

 

Yes sirchet(sorry) all paladins should bear in mind that the kids are perfectly safe provided the party doesn't try and rescue them......

 

Gaear, you're the boss and I continue to be grateful for your efforts.:thumbsup:; you've every right to do whatever you want as far as I'm concerned.
My $0.02, FWIW:
For a group of near-epic levellers the slavers do seem a pretty dissolute bunch to me- if they are really a crack team why are they into low-level child-abduction? It's possible they mght be arrogant or careless, I think... my current party will have 3 characters who would be able to abundant step over 200yards at will, plus another who might greater teleport themself plus a number of others in support by the time I'm fighting this crew... they might have counter measures but I think that there are ways a party of similar power could prioritise either the safety of the children or a tactical advantage given the manifold options of PnP. In that situation it depends on the DM and the story he wants to tell with the players- is this the Kobyoshi Maru situation?
I'm not offended by the metagaming comment- I agree it's almost inevitable! I would say that I metagame for increased challenge though: playing without fighters or magic users and deliberately wandering into tough fights when I really ought to go home and rest, heal and relearn spells (trying to recreate that old 'first moathouse ambush' feel!). I've played the slavers straight up where my paladin went in to talk to them; I think it's bit of a shame if the answer to the question 'I wonder if there's a cunning party way to do it..?' becomes 'no, this is the only option'.
I think if you leave as-is then first timers will get the full experience as planned (because there's no precedent for not being able to just walk in in the game, so why wouldn't they?), and repeat offenders can continue to do their little experiments if they like, without you having to plan contingencies for metagaming. Put it this way: if it is an exploit, who am I cheating but myself? And does it matter if the option is still there to play 'properly' as I have done in the past?
But like I say, you're the DM here: your game, your rules.

 

I asked about this in Feb 2011 and it was no big deal.

1st Attempt- Dialogue with slavers, lose entire party.
Reload (meta, yes) and 2nd attempt- attack first, win with 1 PC left, get thrown in hoosegow. Post a WTF, got a similarly worded reply from Gaer, and buffed the heck out of everyone for the 3rd try.

It is still a tough fight, even now. Partly because some of the buffs xpire before I finish!

 

Haven't read the entire thread so I don't know if this has been mentioned but- why not just surround the slavers with the kids? Eliminates mass damage spells and ensures that the heroes will need fast feet and reactions to keep any kid from being killed...

 

Personally, I think the slavers and the AoH 3rd fight are the two best fights in the NC and would be happy if they stayed unchanged.

If I approach them as a party of adventurers would, both battles never fail to surprise me.

It is so very hard to hit just the right balance when adding content to any game, but these two seem to be right on the money.

 

I have played this scenario over and over again with differing alignments. I go through the dialogue with Tarah to the very end and she always kills a PC before leading into combat. Does this always happen? Do I need to read the dialogue all the way through or is there some way around it to prevent a PC from being killed before the start of combat? I was successfully able to have no TPKs in version 7.6.0 NC, but all the later expansions 7.7.0 NC to 7.9.0 NC, I have been unsuccessful by having at least one PC killed by Tarah's necrotic energy kill spell (Finger of Death or Power Word Kill or Disintegrate). I have viewed previous replies from different players and some mention using strategies such as a invisible rogue sneaking in. I have tried several tactics, but if you fight them to early, you end up killing the rescuing party from Dyvers and then end up paying a fine or getting hung by Verbobonc. Once Abaddon starts casting buffs, I don't think (I might be wrong) you can attack them immediately because the game doesn't let you. Once Tarah frizzles fries your party with paralysis, a PC gets auto-killed. Any other strategy suggestions out there????