Circle of Eight Modpack v7 / v7 NC General Commentary & Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by UncleBuck, Dec 2, 2011.

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  1. SCO

    SCO Member

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    Re: Circle of Eight Modpack v7 / v7 NC Bug Report Thread

    Why does using Lareth dresser initiates dialog with him?!?

    I'm invisible solo and trying to do a no kills runthrough without the "early nulb" mod.

    BTW, it's very illogical that the only way of finding out about nulb is going to the moathouse.
     
    SCO, Jan 6, 2012
    #106
  2. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    That's an old, old mod ... it's to stop the goofy scenario in which a party Lareth has joined could open and read his diary with him just standing there not objecting.

    No more illogical than it is that you don't know about every other location in the game ahead of time. Take the Temple, for example. It's generally known (according to the module) where it is, so you should be able to walk up to anybody in town and ask them. But the game just doesn't work that way and modding it so that it's entirely open-ended like that would a huge undertaking - basically impossible unless you and a hundred others were willing to commit full time to overhauling it for the next two years.

    Aside from that, our operational standard has basically shifted to leaving the vanilla game as unchanged as possible anyway. Bugfixes/goofyness fixes yes, presuming to rethink Troika's big picture methodology no. People generally don't want 'ToEE as re-imagined by Co8,' they want 'ToEE with the bugs fixed.' (You'd never have a consensus on the former anyway, and once you realize that, the merits of the hands-off approach become obvious.) The NC is where we get to be clever if we want, and that's always optional. That way no harm no foul.

    @sirchet - I deny all knowledge of any similarities to anything. ;)
     
    Gaear, Jan 7, 2012
    #107
  3. sirchet

    sirchet Force for Goodness Moderator Supporter

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    *Shakes his fist at the "Bastard Maestro"*

    Anywho ... I have a small quirk to report, not really a bug, but unusual.

    There is a location in the Hickory Branch where your party is completely invisible when walking behind a wall, no silhouette, no gray ghost looking version of your peeps ... nothing, just hidden.

    I have included a few pictures, one of before going behind it "see them" and one with them behind the wall "no see them" well, you can see my evil cleric peeking around the edge.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    sirchet, Jan 7, 2012
    #108
  4. teh_beard

    teh_beard Member

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    When exactly NPCs and critters roll for their HPs?
     
    teh_beard, Jan 7, 2012
    #109
  5. shiffd

    shiffd Member

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    I am playing the NC7 and when elmer (or is it elmo can't remember) died in combat (killed by mob) it gave me the butcher of homlet rep and everyone in homlet starting attacking me.....

    I have played through a few times on other versins and never had that happen. I tend to let teh NPCs die so I can get more later. I know kinda twisted...but hey?

    Is there any fix for this in the meantime?
     
    shiffd, Jan 7, 2012
    #110
  6. SCO

    SCO Member

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    Could you please tweak the condition so it only triggers if you're not invisible and he isn't in the party? And actually taking the diary destroys the one on him too.

    It removes the only way for a good/neutral party to do a non-combat run...

    (no kills is still possible, if you make him give up before you kill any henchman).

    Though there is later dialog that assumes (on the assumption you MUST fight Lareth just to find nulb... derp) that the moathouse was "cleared". Maybe make rufus and co be the cleaner when that happens? I think that is already in the mod if enough of the moathouse survives and Lareth joins. Just put in in prison with some additional dialog as if he never met you, or make him "die" for real if never recruited, ie: rufus cleared it, Lareth died, end of story.
     
    SCO, Jan 7, 2012
    #111
  7. gazra_1971

    gazra_1971 Knights of Legend

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    The moathouse needs to be cleared by you so that the Moathouse Respawn works properly.

    Rufus & Burne probably wouldn't clear the moathouse by themselves because they are probably too busy overseeing the construction of the new castle and protecting Hommlet from any would-be invaders.

    Considering that Rufus and Burne can join your party, I actually agree with you that they could clear out the moathouse themselves.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2012
    gazra_1971, Jan 8, 2012
    #112
  8. SCO

    SCO Member

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    No it doesn't. This already HAPPENS. Rufus already clears it if you are evil and join Lareth or enough of the moathouse goons survive. It's in a mod release notes somewhere.

    Look in one of the Lareth dlg files:
    And sure enough, later :
    (another of the Lareth files is him in prison).

    It would only need to add evil flags and good flags to the dialog of that Lareth, and remove the assumption in wat and the other guy dialogs in that bar in nulb that it was you clearing the moathouse.

    Edit: or maybe nothing is needed for the additional nulb opportunities, it must already be checking if lareth is dead, and if you have the diary and can open it, then that is enough to get nulb.
    Possibly only Wat needs adjustment:
    The only option to deny is if you have bluff... that doesn't even work now if you joined Lareth. Making that "Yes..." option only trigger if Lareth is dead and deny without skill check otherwise should be enough i guess: either we didn't clear it, or Burne did (and Lareth is in prison, but alive).

    Also, selling the diary could trigger the assassin, as if selling the personal items of Lareth. Don't know about his dialog since i never did that quest, but possibly put in a nulb hook there too (if you can't open the diary, though i think that might have been disabled since i never saw that active).

    ....
    But all that aside, i'd be just as happy, if you included mickey's mod:
    http://www.co8.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4989&d=1286443281
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2012
    SCO, Jan 8, 2012
    #113
  9. shiffd

    shiffd Member

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    can anyone confirm or deny for me-
    Is this a bug I am experiencing?
    is this a new change with NC7?
    is there a fix?

    What gives?

    I'm not sure how to proceed here.

    Having Elmo die in combat is a piss poor reason to lose the entire game (from my perspective being labeled a butcher is a loss for me since I am RPing a good party)
     
    shiffd, Jan 8, 2012
    #114
  10. shiffd

    shiffd Member

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    Ok I found this in the release notes

    Fixed rare bug in Hommlet joinable NPCs' dying scripts that could cause Butcher of Hommlet rep.

    So what I have found is though this bug never affected me before...its affecting me now.

    I think I will try to run up a new party, grab Elmo and have him die and see if its making me butcher. maybe its by instance/how I add him or soemthing else.

    Maybe Elmo is bugged in NC 7.0....anyone else have him die and get butcher?
     
    shiffd, Jan 8, 2012
    #115
  11. chano

    chano Established Member

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    This is new for NC7.0, it happened to me aswell, he was killed at Emridy meadows by a giant and i got blamed ::thumbsdow
     
    chano, Jan 8, 2012
    #116
  12. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    That's normal(ish) clipping behavior, but being as HB is custom-clipped it may not be ideal. I'll look at it.

    At levelup?

    I tested Elmo (got him killed in-party) and it did not cause any hostillities. Are you guys sure you didn't hit him accidentally? There is no dying script that would cause it either.

    I suppose that's reasonable, but somehow I have a feeling the only person I'd be doing this for is you. :p

    Actually it does. I'm not aware that there's any scripting in place to actually turn off any remaining mobs at the Moathouse if Lareth is captured (unless maybe SA added that somewhere along the line), and the Moathouse Respawn specifically checks for the existence of various mobs before turning the replacements on. So if you don't 'clear' the Moathouse (i.e. actually eliminate all or most mobs there), the respawn won't activate. (Though I doubt you'd care if you're just doing a no-combat speed run.)

    When Burne and Rufus go through the "we cleared it out" dialog, I'm pretty sure they're just saying that, though I'll have to look at some things to be sure.

    I don't see that happening ... too largescale an effort with continuity et al, as I indicated somehwere earlier.

    That was a bug that was already fixed, and it had to do with a different scenario iirc, but I'll have another look.
     
    Gaear, Jan 9, 2012
    #117
  13. Rocktoy

    Rocktoy Established Member

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    Once again I am amazed, no better could one have hoped for Christ’s mass than this! Thank you from the bottom of my heart: Sydämellisesti kiitos.

    I have now walked through everything else than Temple level 4, Nods, Verbo and the new and hopefully great WotGS, and I can no longer hold my tongue. I have scanned through this thread, but haven’t read every word, as impatient as I am, and I tried to skip all the spoilers so bear with me (and show me the direction/thread) if I ask questions already asked and answered. In 6.x NC I did Verbo and then slayed Iuz, entered the nodes and finally kicked the hell out from the fungi lady.

    What is the order of things now? I am not asking for spoilers, only what was the intended order of things by the modders? If I understood it correctly killing the pesky evil lady is no longer the game ending? If I recall it correctly the Verbo part with the slavers was the far most difficult part i the older modds, so am I now suppose to clear the temple, the nods, slay Iuz and his slavet before Verbo and WotGS?

    The warning appearing simultaneously with buying the deed has always happened to me with the older versions, and did also with this one. Now it took four or five entering times before the actual fight commenced. 3/7 of my characters were at level 8 or 9, whilst my crafters were still at level 3. And yes I was metagameing, every time I entered with full combat buffs.

    Just a wild thought: could there be a little tuning for this quest in the future? Like if one’s search/spot/survival/allofthese skills are high enough one would get a warning before entering? Something in a dialog box that says one has noticed marks of forced entry or unfamiliar magical presence?

    Care to educate a language impaired? “WAI” stands for what?

    Stability report: No jerkstops, two CTD:s so far. And only one bug/spell permanency. Actually I am not sure whether this is even spell permanency, more like annoyance. After defeating the fire temple, one of my characters was infected with the fancy fire ring. The ring did no harm nor good and wouldn’t go away even with Jaroo’s help. Was more like an aesthetic problem? I reloaded and did the fight again, this time the ring kept haunting the dead fire priest. Known issue?
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2012
    Rocktoy, Jan 10, 2012
    #118
  14. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Thanks, Rocktoy.

    I would say ... experiment. Despite the fact that some things are harder than others, it's never really been the intent of the NC to take you on a linear road. Much of Verbo is available simultaneously, so just do it however you want (or however the story progress seems to take you in your particular case).

    You're correct that killing Z-Moy no longer auto-ends the game (in NC), so you should take her on whenever you feel like it. The Slavers are still among the toughest foes in the game, but there is a new end game/boss scenario now that is probably harder. But you can't get that until you complete WotGS anyway. As opposed to it being a meticulously designed encounter, it's admittedly just more of a throw-the-hardest-opponents-in-the-game-at-you thing, but I think players have always wanted it and it was sort of inevitable, given the modern leveling possibilities.

    WotGS is designed to be taxing on your party in a long-haul, win-the-battle-but-lose-the-war type way but will probably depend largely on your skill level. You can't just grind it out conventonally as it is time and resource limited.

    Preston was never meant to warn you the moment you buy the house, so yes, that will be fixed somehow (timer or whatever).

    WAI means "works as intended."

    Also thanks for the stability updates. Graphics permanency is related to spell permamnency and is a known issue, yes.
     
    Gaear, Jan 10, 2012
    #119
  15. Rocktoy

    Rocktoy Established Member

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    What I meant was that things won’t no longer end if I walk through the Nods and slay the slave Z? But there is more to come? Since all the older mods, ended with the Z? And I am so looking for the Daemons and Demigods… Ever since I learned that Iuz was defeatable, beating Z felt like kicking the crap out from Lucifer, whilst the Satan himself was yours to take. In short: Iuz haz been my number one goal ever since.

    So the slave Z is no more the main goal, but the master himself? Never made any sense to me that one can defeat the Old Ugly, but his imprisoned fungi slave still causes trouble.

    A Pyrrhic victory, much appreciated irony.

    Thank you, makes much more sense now. 

    Always welcome.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2012
    Rocktoy, Jan 10, 2012
    #120
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