Co8 New Content: Welkwood Bog

SPOILERS AHEAD!


First of all thank you for this excellent adventure!
I really enjoyed this location. But some moments were still annoying because of my low level party (3 PCs + Elmo and no healer).
IMO RPGs in general seem to be somewhat broken for level 1 characters. Single insta-kill suck. Having to rest for 10 days to get healed was silly. In retrospective it would still be better to do this quest after the fedex level up. (this is not a rant for this NC; it's an offtopic rant for AD&D that I had to vent out)

Now for some feedback and suggestions:
(keep in mind that the dialog suggested here needs to be worked)

[1] The illusions were awesome! But after the 2nd one you know how the 3rd one will be. So I think it would be great if the spirit was real (it also makes sense because he would be guarding that "back door"). While the hill giant would have ~ 10 HP and attacks for 0 damage, and after you "kill him" it vanishes like an illusion (so the hill giant would be some kind of candy cotton illusion).

[2] in the Welkwood the ladder to the dungeon should be hidden and be visible through search or some check

[3] in the Welkwood cave-dungeon corridor, maybe you could put 1 or 2 little traps there, for 2-3 damage each, considering the effort by Melthon into putting people away from Welkwood, it should make sense to have traps too.

[4] sneak is broken twofold: you can't see the enemies because they spawn out of nowhere and they can see your sneaking PC after a non-skeaning party member enters the area. Yes I know you already mentioned this, but I still disagree with it.
On another note, it did felt visually strange how the kobolds and goblins appeared out of thin air. Only after reading your comment I understood that the idea was that they were "coming out" of the cave and huts.

[5] if you let Kwerd live it would be fun to meet in again and be "rewarded" somehow; maybe even seeing him as a shopkeeper (and giving you a discount) somewhere would add a little bit more of "life" to the game.
However a CG or LG party should be penalized for letting him live considering is an "evil monster" and all that

[6] by chance (ie, by resting in the dungeon lol) I noticed that the "lich" and his guards move from one chamber to the other at night.
It would be really cool if that "night room" was being used for some evil bidding. So you could have the lich lackies guarding the entrance to that chamber while the lich does its thing at the crypt past the wooden door. The moment the combat starts the lich starts a X rounds spell, if it succeeds then either some undead thing is summoned (another gnoll skeleton? something more powerful?) or the lich just gets more powerful.

If you interrupt the spell (maybe with a sneaked rogue, or just some crazy barbarian storming in) you would get access to some book or clue that would then open an adventure at another location (this would be for Co8 v8) or maybe something that would work as a key to some chest at another location (maybe in the temple). If the spell succeeds then the combat gets more challenging (either with an additional undead monster or with a more powerful Maethel) and maybe some extra loot.

You would only know about this: (1) by pure chance if you enter the chamber during the night and probably get too late to interrupt the spell, (2) or you get that info from Kwerd.
To make things interesting it could be either by a "sense motive" or "intimidate" check. Another option would be to have as the last dialog options "1. Here is 5 silver for you to start an honest living somewhere else. Now begone! 2. Leave now before I change my mind about letting you live. 3. I changed my mind... it's time to make some kobold skin shoes out of you!".
So if you choose option 1 Kwerd would leave but before he would tell you something like "[Kwern greedily picks up the coins] Yesss! Yesss! I guess you're ok for an filthy/ugly human. But before I leave, there is this rumor I've been hearing among the other kobolds. Since you were so generous, I'll share it with you. I've heard that strange things happen during the night in our Master Melther's chamber. Weird lights and voices go around! And it seems that something big will happen in the next nights. Teknair, a kobold that was part of this group tried to sneak in and see what it was, but he was never seen again. I don't know what's going on there, but if you're trying to kill Melther then you'll have a better chance during the day. By Gaknulak! If you care for your life you shouldn't even go there in the first place!"

[7] It would also be fun if you could pickpocket the lich while in sneak mode, even if for some gag item Maybe an "how to become an undead for dummies" ethereal book

[8] It would be fun if my low Int barbarian had some funny dialogs with the lich (maybe a Int < 8 check) I laughed when my barbarian talked to Elmo, called him Elbow and said he was smarter than him
I'm lacking any decent ideas now but maybe... "Ohh you an ugly one! I more pretty than you! And me smell better too!"

[9] Regarding the lack of story continuity that some have mentioned and I also agree, it would be nice that if in Melther's chest he kept a diary there. In that diary, besides having some pages with "something" (I'm out of ideas at the moment) that give this quest a sense of closure, you would also discover that he was preparing to invade Hommlet by raising the dead buried in Hommet (ps: Hommet is lacking a cemetery ).

[9] After you tell Renton that you killed Melthon and if Elmo is with you it would be nice if Renton exchanged some appreciation words for Elmo:
"Elmo... even though you're a drunk bum... I'm proud of you. You have saved Hommlet. You're a real man-at-arms. Now if only you would sobber up..." and Elmo would reply "guhhh... thanks dad. Now let's go to the inn and have some drinks to celebrate.", and his dad would say "[talking to himself]sigh, I guess that would be asking too much."


Gaer please comment on which ideas you would be open to and which ones you would not.
Everybody else, please comment too.

Now some questions:
Regarding Elmo-Welkwood interaction, was there anything besides being able to take him in the party?
Also, I didn't meet any naked women

 

The original module The Temple of Elemental Evil (for the D&D pencil & paper role-playing game) states the following about Elmo:

 

I had no idea about that.

In any case, I don't think that invalidates the dialog in [9].
It would just be an evidence for his "undercover persona".


bahhh... and no comment on my suggestions/ideas...
Do they suck? Or are they good/interesting? oke:

 

I kinda like the idea about placing traps in Welkwood Bog. That could make things a little more "interesting"...

 

My level 2 evil Clerica commands Marthel. He does nothing, just stands still... anyway I am wondering is there any reason to keep him alive on my side?

 

I've noticed that rebuke undead sometimes breaks their AI. Go fugure *shrug*.

I still think it's a bit too easy when a lvl1 cleric can command/destroy the dungeon's boss monster. Even the gnoll skeleton does better than Mathel. Oh well.

 

This is a really good suggestion. I think that back corridor should be at least hidden or perhaps even inaccessible without first opening it from the inside.

 

I usually take the route on the Kobold map - surfacing on the Goblin map - after the big fight. It does make the conversation with the friendly Goblin rather pointless however.

More traps in ToEE can't be bad - I remember Baldurs Gate 2 having lots of deadly traps in the starting area - an "Assess Trap" option in ToEE would've been nice.

Is it even possible to add the type of ground based traps that are in Baldurs Gate 2 etc?

All the traps that I've come across in ToEE appear to be attached to chests.

 

The maximum possible Search skill that a level 1 rogue can have is 13. This would be a rogue with an 18 Intelligence (+4 Search bonus), maximum skill rank (of 4) in the Search skill, and either:

1. an elf (+2 Search racial bonus) with the Skill Focus (Search) feat (+3 Search bonus),

or

2. a human with the Skill Focus (Search) feat (+3 Search bonus) and the Investigator feat (+2 Search bonus)

Such a rogue would be able to find secret doors that have a DC of 33.

If a player has a party of 8 characters, then assuming that half of the characters in the party make their Search assist DC and add their cumulative Search assistance bonuses to the rogue searching for the secret ladder (for a total of +8 Search assist bonus), such a party would be able to find secret doors with a DC of 41. This is the theoretical maximum search DC of secret doors that a party of 8 (level 1) characters could find (based on average probability).

I always start this computer game with an elf level 1 rogue PC with maximum skill rank in Search skill and an Intelligence of at least 14. Such a rogue would be able to find secret doors that have a DC of 28.

I recommend giving the ladder a search DC of 28.

The computer game manual states the following about the Search skill: (see screenshot below)

 

No wonder the only times I've ever not seen those secret doors is if I had the secret door bug...

 

I've been playing ToEE for 10 years on and off now (purchased the game in 2002) but my most recent playthrough was the first time I have attempted this questline.

Sadly, I only 'discovered' the quest when I was already at level 4, so unsurprisingly the fights weren't a challenge for my party.

However, if I had been playing a level 1 party I am sure that it would have been a challenge! I like the use of Goblin and Kobold enemies - I typically don;t encounter Goblin's in any serious number until the Temple itself, at which point they are just fodder for my Great-Cleaving fighters.

I love the fact that the goblins 'ambush' the player. Unless you have AoE spells (which a level 1 party does not) finding where the enemies will be coming from adds a strategic challenge to the encounters.

If anyone can explain to me how to add the 'ambush' characteristic to a monster, please PM me.

Overall a fun and enjoyable affair. I will certainly make this a priority before the moathosue rather than going through the usual fedex routine!

M