Changes in Co8 6.0.2

When you say original P&P, do you mean the original D&D module that was the original version of the game? Because if so, that means a lot of changes, since this game is based off of version 3.5. There was no such thing as masterwork items. The game only had maybe 20% of the spells 3.5 has. I think to modernize the game, and allow more equality among the classes, so thing may need to be added, either in the towns (as the mod has done by adding masterwork weapons and armor) or out in the dungeons. I find my wizards have to take spells like Bear's Endurance and Fox's Cunning so the can use them to craft late in the game, but I have never cast those spells or even memorized them. Burne never offers them, and you can only buy them late in the game in Verbobonc. So by finding them in a chest here or there would help out.

Any thoughts to adding an instrument to the traders' inventory?

 

One of the lines in the diary says he had a visit from the water temple. That is good info telling you there are other factions active. Too early for any kind of story_state mod?

 

Eliminating the chests might make it a real pain to collect all the treasure if it's scattered on the ground like that. I know it makes more sense that way, since spiders, crayfish and ghouls don't tend to keep loot in chests, but the mechanics of the game are a problem.

 

But why must we believe the creatures in the room are the owners of the chests? Lareth says in his diary that he has been adding undead to the defenses of the moathouse, maybe he put healing potions in the ghoul chest as a safe place for him to escape to in case of an attack on the moathouse. Someone could have charmed the spider and crayfish to guard the areas, or they moved in long after the original moathouse fell into disrepair and the new tenants avoided them or were unable to get past the traps or locks.

@Gaear, my point is Troika made some substantial leaps while converting TOEE from V1 to V3.5. Co8 also made some leaps by adding (needed) content. Why take out some of the content in the moathouse and not take out the same new content in Homlett, i.e. Smythe selling masterwork weapons. I say leave it all in, I can see reducing the DC's of the chests and traps, but there are other ways to get into the chests if the party doesn't have a rogue, like a druid casing warp wood.

 

Agreed. I'm just saying that if you assume the loot came into their possession somehow and they weren't put there intentionally to guard it, then chests probably don't make much sense, but that it would make collecting the loot a pain. I don't think it's a good idea either way.

 

@ Gaear

I support your aforementioned changes in an effort to stay as close to the original module as possible. IMO it makes more sense that the treasure be scattered vice in a chest and don't have a problem having to individually pick up the loot.

Since I'm posting here anyway I have two questions to ask - 1) has Lareth's staff of striking been changed to a staff or is it still a club? 2 is it possible to implement a halfling's +1 to slings and thrown weapons?

Appreciate all the work co8 has done to make this a great diversion from RL.

MB

 

Gear

Thanks for the rapid response.

I seem to remember at some point a discussion about the possibility of adding wpn focus sling to halfling's as a racial bonus. Is that something that could be done or is that considered out of bounds?

WRT the staff of striking as a club issue - could the club version be removed and a "new" weapon (actual staff) be inserted similar to previous weapon mods?

Just curious and don't really have an idea as to how much work it would take or if others really care or not but thought I'd ask.

 

I think this revision is very cool, i have no problem with the Moathouse being made more like the module - which unfortunately this game is the only version of it that i have played. Those chests always were rather difficult to deal with, even for Furnok who is a Level 4 rogue when you can recruit him. Moathouse is a challenge for low level adventurers looking to make a name for themselves.... the chests seemed to be set for a thief of very high stats and abilities at a level higher than the expected LVL for those tackling the Moathouse. while i LIKE the idea of having chests, and don't mind them being trapped, locked, OR filled with lootable goodies - every single one was too hard to crack until one was around level 5 or so.

even the thieves lockpicks in the courtyard were trapped?! i always thought that was weird, i am sure that was not Vanilla ...

However, if some feel that they will miss the chests, (and who wouldn't??? in a party of adventurers seeking treasures and , well ADVENTURE) MAYBE if Gaear thinks it OK they could be relocated to a more logical location - i.e. the lair of the Ogre Lubash (he carries a decent amount on his corpse, that could be placed in a lightly trapped box instead) or the lairs of either or both of the Bugbear or Gnoll raiding parties - the results of their raiding? also locked and trapped.

just an idea. Or, as i said, i'll welcome this change since the chests were always beyond the ability of my rogue this early in the game anyway... usually they were looted during Moathouse Respawn, when they were much less interesting, or needed...

I ALWAYS thought that nasty cavernous mess behind the ghouls should have had a purpose ... glad to hear it will have one now, for those that explore it!

Maybe the scrolls in the Crayfish lair could be on a dessicated lootable mage corpse, for ease of use in picking them up. Someone who wandered down the wrong corridor long ago ... much like the unhappy fellow from Emridy Meadows who dropped his hat, sword, boots, armor etc. LOL

The only thing i'll miss is the diary being trapped. that kind of made sense to me. Lareth is a power-tripping & vain villain with dreams of grandeur (for himself) and thoughts of world domination - i'd think he would want to keep those ideas under lock and key for him to chuckle to himself about in the darkness. He's like a Bond villain - he overestimates his importance, and underestimates his opponents ... sounds like a recipe for mild paranoia and self-important gloating to me. i didn't mind carrying around the diary until my thief was skilled enough to open it. just my thoughts!

 

I for one don't mind the changes, and trying to make it as close to the PnP as possible. As the previous poster stated some of those locks and traps were fairly difficult for a 1-2 lvl party.
The argument on that some things have already been changed such as the spells and masterwork items I find a moot point as that is more of an conversion of 1st edition rules to things that are in 3.5 rules but not in first addition. Then an actual changing of the module itself. Materwork items are a big part of 3.5 and did not exist in 1st edition so it would make sense on changing the module from one set of rules/game play to the other that that would be added/implemented for the shops to have masterwork items. Same thing could be said for money found in areas if example if IRC in 1st edition 20sp=1gp where in 3.5 10sp=1 gp so if it would make since such as a chest with 200sp in the original 1st ed being changed to hold 100sp instead if you are sticking to a gold equivelent standard as your base between editions.
Since we are on the moathouse some other thoughts to make it compley as closely with the original PnP 1st edition module while using some of the rules/skills/items of 3.5 edition would be the Giant Snakes area on the upper floor of the moathouse the snakes area in the CRPG consist of areas 9,10 and 12 in the PnP module. Area nine of the module has a very fine broadsword wedged behind a splintered wall case. This could easily become a masterwork longsword laying near the wall in the NE corner. The giant snake in the litter of its nesting place is a jeweled dagger worth 850 gp. This could be changed to a masterwork dagger either on the "body" of the snake or also in the area to be discovered. A master work longsword and dagger if bought at brother smyths is going to run you in the neighboorhood of 800 or so GP. So this keeps the treasure close to the monetary vaule as per the original module, and gives a close version of the actual items in the module as well; while taking into account the masterwork items of 3.5 that did not exist in 1st edition.
A previous poster hinted at that one nice thing about the chest is you do not have to pixel hunt for items. I agree it would be nice that if items that are buried in rubble etc.. would be found by using your search skill as 3.5 intended. Example: in the original module the main staircase going down from the upper moathouse to the dungeon level. has a gold ring worth 40gp on the 5th stair as per the 1st edition PnP module; "on the 5th stair down is a gold ring worth 40gp. However if the party does not search, the ring will probably pass unnoticed. Roll 1d20 per person using the stairs; the ring is discovered on a roll of 1". Since skills didn't exist in 1st edition it just gave a 5% chance per person have them happing to notice it, and most likely if the players in a PnP game said they were actively searching the stairs the DM would either have them find it or up it to a roll of 1-10 (50% chance) on the d20 or some similar ruling. Having a search skill in 3.5 the ring could have a DC of lets say 23 so there is a chance a party member could find it passively such as sometimes you find a secret door when you pass by. Or if they do an active search from the radial menu its like taking 20 and most likely they will find the ring and it would light up blue like a secret door (no pixel hunting needed you either put the ranks in the skill or not, you don't find it you can't pick up what you don't know is there just like even if you know from previous playthroughs there is a secret door somewhere but your current party didn't find it they cannot go through it.
Well sorry for the post much longer then I intended, just my 2 cents I want to keep it a close to the original as possible, but I also want all the skills/feats/spells/items from 3.5 to be avaliable and have purpose to.

Shapecharge

 

I can confirm Lareth's weapon is a club, specs call it a club, and it responses to weapon focus:club. You can even throw it like a club.

 

Sorry if I was misunderstood, I was not trying to make the suggestion to throw more treasure in the game, I do agree that there is plenty out there.
I was trying to show how you could keep to the treasure that is in the original PnP module such as the "fine long sword", the 850gp Bejewelled dagger and the 40 gp ring (which are all in the original module), and convert them into 3.5 usefull tresure by changing the longsword and dagger into masterwork items. As well as making the skills of 3.5 come into play as making the 40gp ring something you get with use of your search skill and putting ranks into it then just being lucky enough to find it on a pixel hunt. Also while keeping within the spirit of the original module since that is also there to be possibly found, just using the search skill as intended under 3.5 rules which is to sucess searching through rubble and piles of dungeon refuse as well as for secret doors and finding traps.
I hate to say it but there is more tresure left out of the CRPG compared to the original module then added in (not counting new content).
Don't get me wrong I have never been a fan of massive amounts of tresure I do like tresure to feel special when I get it so I am happy where things are at, just was trying to suggest how some of the other stuff from the original PnP could be added or reworked in the flavor of both the original module and 3.5.
Also of note though is the fact that at 1-3rd level I do feel like I got a great find when I get a masterwork item. Its not magical and not over powered, but I either at that time can't afford one or can't kill the hill giant to get brother smyth to make them, so its a cool low level treasure. even if I can't use it I can sell it but I will only get 35-50% of its actual value so still not to over the top money wise. Getting the masterwork shortsword from welkwood bog is one of my highlight tresures until Lareth.
I do think that tresures such as the raise dead scroll in the lizard room, and all the items in the upper shelf of the temple of cuthbert in homlett are way to valuable for lower lvl parties (of course keeping one Heal scroll or potion for Bing is needed).
So in summery sorry if I was misunderstood was not trying to just add tresure for tresures sake I was actually attempting to give suggestions to keep it like the original module by the three tresure examples above.