Where is Hydra on Temple LV 2??

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by anatoliy, Dec 9, 2017.

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  1. anatoliy

    anatoliy Member

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    Where is Hydra in Co8 NC?

    It supposed to be on Temple Dungeon Level 2. Even WorldEd shows it. But it's not present in the actual map?

    Extremely annoyed :mad:, re-downloading standard version.
     
  2. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    There's a script that relocates it to the fire temple if you cause a disturbance in the Temple (like killing another Temple before even talking to the other one). Part of the Reactive Temple mod.
     
  3. anatoliy

    anatoliy Member

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    Thanks @Sitra Achara :)

    I've heard about it in some posts. Interesting idea - regrouping creatures when there are too much kill.

    Let me think, why was it introduced?
    1. Too easy.
    Much of because teams were overpowered and over-leveled.
    Max HD, lowered xp and Limited Point Buy system fixes that and makes game much more appealing.

    2. Boring.
    That is true. ToEE has no story, at least from first glance, and zero narration.
    There is a way to overcome this issue - Greyhawk (details below),

    3. Not real.
    Also true. It's silly, that tens of ally corpses would not arise suspicion from inhabitants.
    And it's logical, that they would act.
    But implementation is quite misleading and confusing. Mostly because as a Player, you have absolutely NO IDEA what is going on. This is called bad storytelling design.
    Some could argue, that in real-life, there is always much of unknown. Yes, no doubt in that.
    But in a Game or Literature - this is bad quality. Take a look at "Interactive_storytelling" for further read.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2017
  4. marc1967

    marc1967 Established Member

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    I honestly don't know where to begin, so I'm gonna jump around a bit, sorry for this.

    How can the implementation of a reaction to the attack on their temple be called "misleading and confusing" and "bad storytelling design"? You enter the dungeon and cause some havoc, then leave for a while, then come back and the bad guys have relocated and bunched together for safety. Also, time passed while you were away, and some of the independent creatures, like the trolls and their hydra, joined up with one of the temples.

    You state "Mostly because as a Player, you have absolutely NO IDEA what is going on". What are you looking to know exactly? I'm not sure if you are upset that the creatures have moved from their location as given in the original module, and this has upset the cozy comfort of knowing the module and where every creature is meant to be. Or is the problem that there were no hints when you returned that this has happened? Maybe a sign that says "HEY WE ALL MOVED INTO ROOM 205b, SEE YA THERE". This is a very tamed-down version what a DM would do in a real game, which would be much more confusing and deadly to real players.

    Next you state that having an unknown in a game is a bad quality. Huh? TOEE is basically a dungeon crawl, which I mentioned in another posting. It's all about the unknown, with a smidgen of hints provided beforehand. You shouldn't know whats around the next corner, or what dangers lurk on the next level.
     
  5. sigofmugmort

    sigofmugmort Established Member Supporter

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    While DM'n the PnP version when it first came out I used (and expanded on) the reactive temple notes in the module. the Reactive temple mod is close to this.
     
  6. anatoliy

    anatoliy Member

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    If I thought, that Troika's ToEE is bad quality I wouldn't poked around in c++ code whole last month and writing new .Net libraries for purpose of expanding and ease of new module creation.

    Think of Return of ToEE for example with brand new Temple of All-Consumption.
     
  7. anatoliy

    anatoliy Member

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    There should be clues, or hints from someone, or NPC deduction (Sens Motive) or Narrative. There could be some one running and yelling or a letter\note. Anything.
     
  8. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    An idea I've toyed with for Temple+ is to add a description box a la Fallout 1/2. This could be used to relay the atmospheric area descriptions from the original module, and also to provide such clues ("a wide track of large footsteps leads to the north. It looks like something left here in a hurry").

    This could also be expanded to something like the Encounter screen from Realmz.
     
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  9. Daryk

    Daryk Veteran Member

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    When I ran the PnP module back in college, I had the PCs in mortal fear of the gnolls on the first level, to the point they actively avoided them to go deeper into the temple.
     
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  10. anatoliy

    anatoliy Member

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    I completely agree with you @Sitra Achara . This could be huge addition and could impact gameplay strongly. You have my full support on this feature.

    In Fallout 1 Manual there is info about:
    There could be different usage for that window \ Encounter screen \ Display Monitor (name must be defined):

    1. Encounter passages
    , as stated in the original module "If an encounter includes special notes which will apply before a party can react, highlight or mark such passages as a reminder, so you are sure of properly including each detail."

    2. Background Narration.
    Like information, that something is not right and you should investigate, even maybe hints what should be done: use Track (Survival), Hunch (Sense Motive), Find a Footprint (Search).

    3. Examine.
    3.1. Place could throw a Room description from the original manual.
    3.2. Scenery could throw it's description.
    3.3 Creature could have Inspect Check (Knowledge or Know Your Enemy) describing vital information about foe.
     
  11. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    He just means that by standard storytelling conventions, there has to be enough exposition to engage the player/viewer/reader and cause them to invest in the process so as to evoke the typical responses - intrigue, anger, fear, loss, hope, fulfillment, etc. Without those things you pretty much just have play-by-numbers, but as you point out, ToEE kind of is play-by-numbers anyway, since people mainly love it for the quality TB.

    Anyone who's watching the latest season of The Walking Dead will know the implications of thematic confusion and poor narrative storytelling. ;)
     
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  12. anatoliy

    anatoliy Member

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    I have an idea of introduction encounter at Temple Entrance.
    As soon as party enters Temple it's stumbled upon conversation between human rookies and Earth administrator, arrogant racists bugbear.
    The bugbear tells that humans are lucky because he would rather kill them, but Temple needs reinforcements. That there are 4 rival temples abd earth is the best.
    That as a rookie you have to wear robes until properly registered. To register, rookie has to prove themselves clearing skeleton area. That they would not miss them, because replenish rate of one human per day and one monster per week.
    Afterwards they should locate him at area xxx, unless he is scouting for new recruits in Nulb or REGROUPED at Temple altar due to massive attack, probably from other temple.
    He could remember last time they regroup, because finding 10 bodies of earth monsters. Although it was just a disease, and they found them after one day of lying.
     
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