Project Delicate Rebalancement: Tales of the Wild Coast

Discussion in 'General Modification' started by TimSmith, Nov 26, 2006.

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  1. krunch

    krunch moving on in life

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    My understanding is that my mod will become the new end game to take place after dealing with Zuggtmoy. In other words, you will have to deal with Zuggtmoy, first, to get to play my mod.

    fyi - My mod is going through a major upgrade to include some new maps; several new and never before seen monsters, boss monsters, and big boss monsters - might even be enough to scare the willys out of ya and frighten you like never before. It's not just about a Half-Orc Commander any more. Well, he is still a big part of it and he is definitely much badder than before, but there is a lot more to suffer than just him and his group. And, because of that, I like to think of the new upgrade for my HB MOD as one to put evil back in to bad guys.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2008
  2. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    [edited for krunch-stealth post - 'twas a response to Zeb) ;)

    Well, the thing is, this has already been kicking around for ... (goes to check) 15 months now. And a lot of it has already been hashed out a long ways. Allyx (who as CMF guy and the guy who'll end up doing a lot if not most of the work) probably carries more weight than anybody on this, and he has already made inroads on getting cooperation from krunch to restat HB for a late game appearance (which to my undestanding he has already been working on), as well as permission from Ted to do likewise on MR, and has already been working on the same for Verbomod. He's also already recruited (or at least approached) OB for story integration duties. So a lot of this is already well on its way, which makes backtracking to discuss again whether we should do it or not or how we should do it or to what extent we should do it kind of counterproductive.

    Seemlessly integrating our new content into the OC (which, let's face it, it really isn't right now) would be an enormous task, so large that (like happened last time) it realistically would probably never get done. Moving it to the end seems much more doable to me, and less risky. Plus, we can then boast that we really haven't much changed the 'balance' of the OC, such as it is.

    I guess if you're seriously suggesting that we turn back and re-evaluate everything again, we'll need a much wider range of input than we've had thus far (in the last day or so).
     
  3. Zebedee

    Zebedee Veteran Member Veteran

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    To be honest Gaear, if you guys have decided already then there's no real point in discussing it much further - I thought it was still up for debate which is why I posted as I did. :)

    I'll play catch-up and see what I can do once the big move is completed and my life gets back to 'normal' :)
     
  4. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Well, as is usually the case here, there has been no formal declaration that 'this is how we'll do it,' so in a manner of speaking I was looking for new input, as well as confirmation that the whole thing was still technically a go in the general sense. This thread certainly indicates no resolution, but with your recent meaneuvers to get things squared away it seemed that broaching the topic again would be appropriate. I have no objection to your raising these points; I'm only trying to portray the situation as it stands to the best of my ability, which includes the reality that asking krunch to go back again and re-re-stat HB would be asking a lot ... regardless of whether we properly disclosed the disposition of this whole endeavor in the first place or not.

    I'm all for something of this magnitude (and modding in general) being well organized and having everybody on the same page, but unfortunately we just don't operate that way here for the most part. If you want to work toward that end in the future I'll back you up 100%.
     
  5. Zebedee

    Zebedee Veteran Member Veteran

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    I would certainly have hoped that there would have been a much wider and broad based consensus (perhaps even in the main forum) before decisions were implied or moved towards. Especially such a major one as this.

    I wouldn't dream of asking Krunch to restat HB although I have huge and grave concerns about making it 'the' end game.

    But as I said, if the decision has been reached (no matter how), it is somewhat pointless to bump this thread and pretend to have a discussion on an already closed topic :)

    It's not really a case of even being on the same page, it's more a case of very big changes being implemented in a community driven mod on the basis of a thread which a bare handful of people have commented upon.

    Still, we'll muddle through as we always do - I'd just hoped maybe we'd be able to reduce the amount of work required by getting things done in a way which won't be controversial and would only need to be done once :)
     
  6. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Hm. I don't think I like the sound of that, Zeb, whether you put the misleading smilie behind it or not. But I'm not going to exacerbate this situation further by point-counter-pointing everything to death here.

    Suffice it to say that I'll leave it to Allyx or anybody else who's got any meaningful information on the matter to further the discussion or not as they may see fit (probably should have just left it that way to begin with), or maybe the whole thing will go back into hibernation like it had been before. Regardless, I'll withdraw from any further involvement myself.

    I will say that if I see any further inflammatory remarks of this nature here I'll at the very least close this thread.
     
  7. Zebedee

    Zebedee Veteran Member Veteran

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    The comments were fair and reasonably phrased Gaear. Do as you wish with the thread but it's hardly inflammatory to make them in a thread which should be about open discussion on the way forward.
     
  8. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    I'd say this happens in most threads of its type: members of the public bring things to our attention but only a handful of the developers end up debating what to do about it. I guess the general public don't want to tell people what to do when they are not the ones commiting endless hours of their personal time to things.

    I still hope if anyone in the mod-playing population feels strongly about this stuff they will speak up - we are doing these mods for them to play, after all.
     
  9. ben34

    ben34 Member

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    Re: Are The New Mods Making The Game Unbalanced?

    I wouldn't worry about Zuggmmoy ending the game because if you read the actual adventure book that originally came out it explanes that the Temple is mearly the beginning and Zuggmoy is mearly a pawn in the entirerty of the complex nature of the many evil gods that encompass this whole adventure. If I recall Lolth had a cameo as well as Iuz and supposedly the true nature of the element of evil is still to this day unknown and that is what keeps the game alive in modern times I suppose. Perhaps 4.0 will shed more light on the evil to keep it at bay in the future who knows.
     
  10. SanityLost42

    SanityLost42 Member

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    I PnP'd through the Return to ToEE a couple years back .... and it does shed some light (in a mad sort of way) to the mysteries raised by Ben34. My memory is fuzzy, but Iuz, Lolth and the Elemental Cohorts(we cleared Imix only) were pawns to a Lost Power (who's name escapes me atm - only that he was Mad).

    On the subject of few people chiming in to volunteer, and only a few actually debating idea.

    it's as says
    Given that I recently refound my copy of ToEE (purchased after the aforementioned Return game) and Just about finished off all I can/plan to do in a 5.0 run ... my next plan is to wipe, and rebuild so that I can a: play KoTB, and play with the modding tools, and see what scant scraps of python I can remember. There are a couple things that stick out to me, to poke, and once I'm confident that I have something, I'll post it in the relevant forum.

    As I've read every single page of this thread ... I can offer a small viewpoint: Recently WoTC revamped their Treasure Tables completely - in a more rebalanced fashion. These tables were published with the Magic Item Compendium (ver 3.5) - reminds me alot of the 4 volume 2nd ed version .... right before 3.0.

    BIG changes: +1 weapons - CR 6, +1 armor - CR 4, +2 Weapons - 11, +2 Armors - CR8 , +3 weapons - CR 14, +3 armors, CR 12
    Also CR 8 - Gloves of Dex +2, et al.

    The way they worked it is that the CR of the encounter gives loot UP TO it's CR, with it's CR being the 95-00 drop spot, more or less, on the table. This change makes high end weapons and armor ALOT rarer.

    Sadly, none of the book is under the OGL, so using any of it ..... has it's own risks, especially in this setting. Guidelines for rarity seems cool though .....

    Just a note ;)

    <Quietly cheers on the people who have dedicated countless hours to these projects>
     
  11. GuardianAngel82

    GuardianAngel82 Senior Member

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    Another two-percenter's uninformed opinions:

    1. I'd hate to see a significant amount of the new content moved to the end-game, but I would love to see some new hard-to-beat content for later in the game. Perhaps a HB respawn a la Moathouse would be suitable. Tone down the earlier spawn's treasure haul to +1 stuff and wierd stuff like monk toys and holy gnome picks. Then, make the later spawn more suitable for 12th level parties. (Balor Beach Party!)

    2. Rebalancing the game can be quickly done if the usual encounters could be scaled up in difficulty according to party level. Honestly, I am not sure how to handle this, since most places in the game seem to be populated according to a pretty rigid script. Maybe spawn reinforcements off the map that would rebalance the encounter? How will the roving patrols be created?

    3. Replayabilty can be enhanced if some randomness can be introduced into the same-old, same-old encounters. Perhaps the initial population of a given place can be slightly different each time the area is initially created (for each game).

    4. I'm guessing that 2. and 3. above would be modders' nightmares from scratch. Perhaps techniques could be experimented on by trying to introduce more scalability and randomness into the world map encounters until something seems workable before introducing it into the set encounters, say like inside the Temple.

    I know it seems like I'm trying to get MORE content rather than BETTER content, but I would never be so greedy. (Slavers while rubbing hands together and chortling to self.) But honestly, the easiest way does seem to be to keep 10th level parties from pillaging and ravaging their way through the temple. My prediction is that most of my fellow addicts will keep a secret build of the old, unbalanced version around for when they need to make that Balor their bitch.
     
  12. Sachmo

    Sachmo Knight of the Crown

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    I love all new and extra content that can be put into this game and I must admit I like the idea of further adventures after defeating the Temple. I love the sound of bringing in bigger and badder monsters to be killed, that Mod of Krunch's sounds very intriguing.

    I don't see a problem with continuing adventures after the Temple is defeated, as that is what you would expect your heroes to do. You wouldn't think they would go into retirement.
     
  13. blackfly

    blackfly Established Member

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    I am replaying this game after almost a year. That should tell you that this game, in no small part due to the mods, STILL keeps me interested. That is saying a lot. Thanks all modders.

    I am playing through an evil party right now, and enjoy it. But the game is still too unbalanced, COMPARED TO THE VANILLA version. Perhaps some background.

    I am an old school AD+D'er, and levels and magic were both earned and hard to find/get. I am not going to be naive and think no one is going to cheat, but what fun is in that? A newbie playing through, perhaps with little or no D+D experience (unlikely, but possible) is NOT going to do well with the mods. But I KNOW what is coming, and subconciously or not plan for it. I know where Lareth is, the dungeons, monsters..... it is all predictable. The ONLY nonpredictable thing is the random encounters. Running into a dragon here or there is always good.......

    I stand by my original assertion: CRAFTING MUST BE MORE COSTLY AND HARDER TO DO!!!!!!!! Any party able to run around with +3flaming/shock/icyburst/keen weapons is not going to find enemies tough. I venture to challenge ANY modder or player to show me weapons like this in the original game NOT an artifact. The weapons you can craft are SO OUT OF BALANCE WITH THE GAME it is no wonder it gets easy. But that is the game.

    Maybe make it such the more players in the party, the more it costs to craft (to balance out power). Make it harder (via level minimums) for certain crafting combos.

    But removing content (hickory, gnarley etc..) is a waste. That is why I am here and loving it so.
     
  14. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    I tihnk most people would agree with you, but the rules are the rules :shrug: I think folks can only make the decision to play their games without crafting, as many (including myself) do.
     
  15. erkper

    erkper Bugbear Monk Supporter

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    Would there be any way besides a .dll hack to reduce the EL maximums? Instead of being able to craft a +3 icyburst shockingburst keen holy axiomatic cleaver you maybe top out with 2 or 3 enhancements? That would still give crafters the ability to custom create weapons of their choosing without leading to the massively unballancing uber-weapons.

    Where's Spellslinger when you need him? :cry:
     
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