Playing ToEE, my questions and comments

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by random1, Dec 8, 2010.

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  1. random1

    random1 Member

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    First of all, thank you Co8 for all your work. There is no such thing as enough bug fixing, and the NC is just the cherry on top of the cake.
    I just started playing this game, with Co8 5.9.3 NC modpack, and I am currently cleaning the Moathouse.

    My Chaotic Neutral party uses 5 pre-generated characters by Troika and I just realized there is no bantering at all (maybe this is why the game pales in comparison to BG2... even though I was able to get a reputation of Master of Crude Insult :p but then I loaded a previous save just to be on the safe side).
    However there are also several NPCs across the game, which I haven't recruited any yet.
    My question is: would I be better off letting my PCs (pre-generated characters) die and replace them with the NPCs (eg, Elmo, Fruella, etc) instead? Will there be bantering?
    How reliable are NPCs? Will they leave you with part of the loot just because they feel like it or you did something they didn't agree?

    I have another question regarding dialog skills, the manual says it depends on which character you use to initiate the dialog. But as far as bartering goes, it doesn't really matter on which character I choose for bartering. Is this a bug?
    I personally don't like much this approach of "you have to select the most-skilled character". If we look at it with a real world point of view, during a dialog all the party members are there and anyone can speak (eg, bluff, intimidate, use diplomacy, etc) at any moment.

    Next follows a list of bugs, annoyance, and some rants too:
    - when you find Otello red-handed you can exploit him 5 Platinum indefinitely by choosing the "hand it over to me and I won't tell you did it" option
    - there is a limit on the number of flags once can place in a map (at leat in Hommlet)
    - double clicking on a portrait does not center the screen on that character, the "camera" just moves a couple of pixels towards him instead but then stops.
    - the party members seem to like ignoring the move commands, it's very annoying :|

    - item description by shift+click does not work on equiped or shop listed items, it only works on your inventory
    - when in the inventory and with a item descriptio pop-up, pressing ESC closes both windows, but it should only close one (per ESC key press)
    - pressing Tab does not highlight items like chests. Is it possible to make containers highlight with the tab key? I hate pixel hunting.
    - is there any mod that makes the use of the identify spell not cost 100 gold? That doesn't make any sense to me.

    - in the Moathouse, in the secret passage accessible from the ogre floor level, there are 3 zombies and a zombie chest. I have 5 ranks in Disable Device + 2 bonus points from Intelligence, and yet I still fail to disable the trap most of the times I tried :| Even more surprising is the Open Lock which fails on that chest and also on the Giant Crayfish chest, and I have 5 ranks + 4 dex bonus!!!
    - is it possible to make the battles less random? It seems they have more to do with save-load-and-try-again than with stats or skill (it has been... almost a decade since I played a D&D RPG... I'm not so sure I like the power of random anymore).
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2010
  2. gazra_1971

    gazra_1971 Knights of Legend

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    Troika's pregenerated PCs are just like PCs that you create. All of the recruitable NPCs in the game have their own unique voices and personalities, and some of them even have their own personal quest that they will ask you to help them complete (Zaxis wants you to help him find his sister, Ronald has his own quest, etc.). The following is a list of all of the recruitable NPCs in the game:

    KEY:
    ===
    (temporary) - the NPC will leave your party if you do a specific thing, such as travel to a particular area, complete a particular quest, talk to a particular nonrecruitable NPC, etc.

    (nonrecruitable NPC interaction limiter) - the NPC will cause almost all nonrecruitable NPCs to refuse to talk to you while that particular NPC is in your party.

    Hommlet:
    Burne (will only join you once you've found the Temple of Elemental Evil)
    Cavanaugh (will only join you once you've made him a beggar)
    Elmo (will only join you if you pay him a one-time hiring fee)
    Fruella (will only join you if you marry her)
    Furnok
    Kobort (will only join a party of 4 or less characters, and Turuko has to join as well)
    Meleny (will only join you if the PC talking to her has a Charisma of at least 16, and you agree to marry her, and you complete the requisite quests involving her father Filliken and her sister Althea)
    Raimol (will only join you if you pay either Rannos Davl or Gremag a one-time hiring fee)
    Ronald (will only join you if you pay him a one-time hiring fee)
    Rufus (will only join you once you've found the Temple of Elemental Evil)
    Pishella
    Spugnoir
    Turuko (will only join a party of 4 or less characters, and Kobort has to join as well)
    Zert
    Moathouse:
    Lareth (temporary) (will only join you once you've reduced his HP low enough)
    Nulb:
    Bertram (will only join you once you've freed him from Tolub)
    Hruda (temporary) (will only join you if Mother Screng is already in your party)
    Mother Screng (temporary) (will only join your party if your characters are 5th level or lower, and Otis is in your party as well)
    Otis (temporary) (will only join you once you've found the Temple of Elemental Evil. Will leave your party the first time you return to Nulb. You can recruit him again by talking to him about temple factions, but then the next time you return, he will leave permanently)
    Riana (will only join your party while Serena is in your party)
    Serena (will only join you if you buy her or her freedom from Mona)
    Temple dungeon level 1:
    Ed (is only in the game if you choose the humour option when Mona tells your fortune)
    Morgan
    Pitak (will only join your party if Tuelk joins your party as well)
    Ted (is only in the game if you choose the humour option when Mona tells your fortune)
    Tuelk (will only join your party if Pitak joins your party as well)
    Wonnilon
    Temple dungeon level 2:
    Oohlgrist (nonrecruitable NPC interaction limiter) (will only join you if you intimidate him)
    Temple dungeon level 3:
    Prince Thrommel (temporary) (will leave your party as soon as you exit the Temple of Elemental Evil)
    Scorpp (nonrecruitable NPC interaction limiter) (will only join you once you've reduced his HP low enough)
    Temple dungeon level 4:
    Kella (will only join your party if you have a druid in your party or your party alignment is True Neutral)
    Paida (temporary) (will leave your party if you talk to Valden)
    Earth Node:
    Jaer (temporary) (will leave your party as soon as you enter Nulb)
    Sargen (temporary) (will leave your party as soon as you enter Nulb)
    Air Node:
    Ashrem
    Taki (won't join or stay in your party while Ashrem is in your party)
    Fire Node:
    Darley (nonrecruitable NPC interaction limiter)
    Verbobonc:
    Corporal Holly (temporary) (will only join your party while you are doing the 'Under Attack From Underground' quest) (will leave your party as soon as you have completed the 'Under Attack From Underground' quest)
    random encounter (while travelling on the world map):
    Zaxis

    I recommend that you have a single class rogue PC as your party leader (i.e. in the left-most portrait slot), that you maximize this character's Appraise, Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Sense Motive skills, that you always use this character to initiate dialogue with NPCs (so that you get the best prices when buying and/or selling items, and so that you will have the most dialogue options to choose from when selecting your responses in conversations with NPCs), and that you have this character way out in the front of your party formation so that NPCs that initiate dialogue with your party will select your rogue to converse with.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2011
  3. General Ghoul

    General Ghoul Established Member

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    About the skills, appraise and survival are used by only the highest skill in the party, so no need for more than one to have it.

    A wand of identify doesn't cost gold.

    On the unlocking of chest/disable traps: you can click on the roll screen (lower right above the party function buttons) and see how badly you failed. Sometimes you just need to roll again and get a higher roll, but you can do the math to see if even a roll of 20 fails. They are things you can do to improve your chances:(lock picking is DEX based, disable device is INT based) cast spell (Cat's Grace, Fox' Cunning) to boost your skill modifier(+1-4), have a bard sing Competence(+2), cast Prayer(+2), cast Guidance (+1), make sure your armor is not limiting your DEX bonus, Thieves tools (+1, Masterwork +2), Lockslip grease (+2).

    If traps are hitting your rogue, equip him with a longspear and he'll stand far enough away to avoid the trap.
     
  4. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Bantering was originally limited to a few remarks from various NPCs upon arriving at a new map, and a very few interactions between them - like when Elmo meets Otis in Nulb. But thanks to Shiningted, there is additional banter in the Co8 modpack (and with all original audio - no 'impressions'). It doesn't compare to Baldur's Gate and never will - the operational mechanics just aren't there - but it's a lot better than it was.

    I'll see about fixing that.

    Not possible I'm afraid.

    There's no such mod, but with Co8 you can use Read Magic to identify potions at no cost. The 100 gp fee for Identify is per the 3.5 rules, and ToEE is all about abiding by the rules for an as-close-to-tabletop-as-possible experience in a CRPG.

    No. Again, it's the 'essence of turn-based D&D' thing - not so much about randomness as variability. It's what make's the game so replayable, because nothing ever happens the same way twice. (Or at least the potential for a high degree of variance is there ... fighting a single goblin will likely always work out about the same, but fighting a large group of enemies with casters, melee types, ranged types, etc. almost never will.)
     
  5. random1

    random1 Member

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    Thanks for all the feedback so far.
    I've been spending my time on meta-gaming (ie, reading some threads in the forum and the game manual as well).
    Since I don't have much time to play videogames, I rarely replay them (kind of anti-RPG... oh the irony), which in its turn makes me want to experience the game in the best possible way, which makes me spend quite some time in "meta-gaming".
    Back to the topic...


    Really nice to know that I can identify scrolls and potions with the Read Magic spell :) That solves the annoyance (especially with a low level party) with the 100 gold on the Identify spell.
    "A wand of identify doesn't cost gold." - and where could I find that?
    I found a small bug, or should I say minor inconvenience, with the Read Magic spell. If you miss-click and click on an already identified item the spell it is wasted on it.

    On a different matter, can anyone clarity this issue: Isn't the Wizard supposed to learn new spells from scrolls? If I identify the scrolls that were in Terjon's library, I'm still unable to add then to my spell book.


    As for the NPCs and a PC rogue as party leader... ok, now I'm tempted to start the game again.
    But since I read something about the upcoming version of Co8 NC modpack, version 6.0.0, :D Maybe I should continue with my current party in order to get accustomed to the gameplay and then start a new game when it's out. Will version 6.0.0 include the War of the Golden Skull?

    I've read different threads regarding NPCs:
    http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/ToEE/Walkthrough/PartyGuide/NPCList.php (includes spoilers!)
    http://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8009
    http://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7845
    So I'd like to know what do you say to a new party consisting on 2 PCs (a rogue as party leader and a damage-dealer sorcerer) and 3-5 NPCs.
    What I'm interested is in dialog that makes NPCs stand out, that gives them character, that makes me want to have an adventure with them... oh and humurous lines are much welcomed too :)


    From what I read these seem to be the most interesting. So what would you recommend:
    Elmo
    Fruella (will stay in party probably until something traggic happens to her *grin*, probably until Nulb)
    Mellany
    Ronald
    Lareth
    Burne
    Otis

    And I've also read that these are interesting:
    Bertram
    Wonnilon
    Scorpp
     
  6. gazra_1971

    gazra_1971 Knights of Legend

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    If your spellcaster (who knows the Read Magic spell) chooses the Craft Wondrous Item feat, then he/she will be able to create a Helm of Reading Magic that grants its wearer the ability to cast the spell Read Magic an unlimited number of times. This is by far the most useful utility item in the game! Then it won't matter if you mistarget your Read Magic spell on an already identified scroll or potion.

    All of the scrolls in Terjon's library are divine spells (or spells that wizards don't have access to). Wizards can only cast arcane spells (unless they make a successul Use Magic Device check to emulate a cleric's ability to cast divine spells from a scroll).

    The War of the Golden Skull mod will be included in version 7 of The Circle of Eight Modpack NC which will be released on December 20, 2011.

    Thanks for the links to those threads. I found the thread on how much voice dialogue each NPC has very useful!

    I recommend that you play your first game of The Temple of Elemental Evil with all PCs and no NPCs because PCs that you create are always going to be better in combat than the NPCs that you can recruit (except for Scorpp and Oohlgrist), and because The Temple of Elemental Evil is a brutal game if you haven't mastered the game mechanics and you don't know what's going to happen next in the game as you are playing it (and because it is SO freaking annoying not being able to see any of an NPC's attributes!).

    Zaxis and Elmo and Sargen are outrageous NPCs! If you want humorous NPCs in your party, then definitely recruit them. I am led to believe that Ronald is the most interactive NPC in the game. Be warned, Scorpp and Lareth have different alignments to all of the other NPCs that you listed. Lareth will very likely leave your party. Having Scorpp in your party will prevent you from doing virtually ALL of the quests in the game! (because nearly all NPCs will refuse to talk to you while Scorpp is in your party).

    Click on the following link for what's in store in future versions of the Circle of Eight Modpack NC:

    http://www.co8.org/forum/showpost.php?p=102670&postcount=32
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2011
  7. General Ghoul

    General Ghoul Established Member

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    Yes the Helm of Reading Magic is one of the best items in the game. One of the Temple leaders has a wand of Identify in his secret chest, or you could always make one.

    Zaxis is my favorite, I take him anytime I can find him. He has decent stats, and I make him the back up everything. He can heal or summon or blast with his spells. He has some bow/arrow feats so makes a good archer (with a composite shortbow) and can still melee well enough for a backup fighter. But his best option is to constantly sing the Inspire Courage song, +2 on most rolls! Then when needed he can Inspire Competence for the bonus to skill checks (spellcraft when copying scrolls into your spellbook, or picking locks!). Also the counterspell option is great vs the fear effects of some monsters.

    Try all the attack options on the radial menu. I have come to love an enlarged monk tripping opponents. When they try to rise, everyone get a free hit on them. Great for some of the boss fighters or against people who like to escape until later!
     
  8. random1

    random1 Member

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    Given that I started playing ToEE again (and will hopefully finish it this time!) some questions do pop up, so I think it's better to use my old thread instead of starting dozens of new ones.


    What exactly does the movement speed in the armor means?
    I have some armors with different values for this, but when I equip my barbarian with it, his speed doesn't change.
    Do I need to care about this value or should I only look at the Speed value in my character table?

    What exactly does the Max DEX bonus affect? Only the physical DEX stat? If I use an item or spell to increase DEX does it limit that bonus as well?

    And as for the Armor Check Penalty does it only affect spellcasters?
    How exactly is that value considered?


    Thanks
     
  9. General Ghoul

    General Ghoul Established Member

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    Armor check penalty is for anyone using armor they don't know how to use. A rogue only knows light armor, when he puts on plate, he takes a penalty to most of his rolls.

    Max DEX bonus is the maximum bonus a character can take while wearing the armor. A fighter with an 18 DEX can wear any armor, but while wearing plate, his movement is limited, so his maximum DEX bonus is +1, so his AC is raised by 1, but his bonus to hit with a bow is reduced from +4 to +1. A rogue wearing heavy armor will see his skill bonuses decrease. So high DEX characters are better off wearing lighter armor. A character could have a magically increased DEX to 26, but wearing plate armor will limit him to only a +1 bonus. For high DEX characters, the Purple Elven Chainmail is the way to go. Or go with no armor and a tattoo.
     
  10. gazra_1971

    gazra_1971 Knights of Legend

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    The Armor Check Penalty is the penalty that applies to skill checks attempted by a character wearing the armor. The computer game manual states that Armor Check Penalty only applies to the following skills (note that these skills are all Dexterity-based skills):

    Hide
    Move Silently
    Sleight of Hand
    Tumble
    ____________________________________________

    In D&D 3.5, Movement Speed is the maximum number of feet that a character can walk each combat turn and still get an action such as making an attack or using an item. The computer game manual states that a character's movement speed is determined by the following:

    Combat Movement Speed:

    30 feet (Elves; Half-Elves; Half-Orcs; Humans) (reduced to 20 feet when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load)

    20 feet (Dwarves; Gnomes; Halflings) (reduced to 15 feet when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load, except for Dwarves who ALWAYS have a movement speed of 20 feet)

    +30 feet (level 9-10 Monks not wearing armor and not carrying a medium or heavy load)

    +20 feet (level 6-8 Monks not wearing armor and not carrying a medium or heavy load)

    +10 feet (Barbarians not wearing heavy armor and not carrying a heavy load; level 3-5 Monks not wearing armor and not carrying a medium or heavy load)
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2011
  11. random1

    random1 Member

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    Thank you for the explanations guys.

    But what about armors and speed?
    The Max Speed... well, I suppose it's what it means, it will put a speed limit on the character wearing it.
    But when I shift+click on an Armor it says "Movement Speed: 30/20". What does this one means?


    EDIT (just leaving this here for future reference):
    after reading both General Ghoul's and gazra_1971's comments I didn't notice this important difference regarding the Armor Check Penalty.
    The fact is it doesn't matter if the character is proficient with that type of armor or not. When I equipped my rogue with a Light Armor Chain Shirt I still got a penalty! He still gets a -1 penalty for using Studded Leather Armor. This penalty disappears if it's a Masterwork item.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2011
  12. random1

    random1 Member

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    Another question:

    Meleny has the Simple Weapon Proficiency feat, which includes Light Maces, however when I give her one, her Primary to hit is still -1.
    It also stays at -1 when I give her a Smicitar.
    And it also doesn't matter if I give her a shield or not.

    What is wrong?


    EDIT:
    it seems I'm unable to delete my message.
    But I think I found the answer, it's because of her Str stat isn't it?
     
  13. GuardianAngel82

    GuardianAngel82 Senior Member

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    Yes. Her strength is 8, which puts her "to hit" at -1. ;)
     
  14. gazra_1971

    gazra_1971 Knights of Legend

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    I'd like to give Meleny one too :pelvicthr



    For example, if you SHIFT-click on Silver Breatplate armor, it states that the armor has a Movement Speed: 20/15. The first number (i.e. 20) is the combat movement speed that humans, elves, half-elves, and half-orcs have their combat movement speed reduced to while wearing the armor. The second number (i.e. 15) is the combat movement speed that halflings and gnomes have their combat movement speed reduced to while wearing the armor.

    The most important thing about armor is whether it is "light", "medium" or "heavy" armor. You can SHIFT-click any armor to see which weight category the armor belongs to. I've amended post #10 of this thread so that you can see exactly what movement speed a character will have.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2011
  15. random1

    random1 Member

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    You shall not defile her maidenhood!!! :punch:

    She's married to me! :love: Her cherry is mine! :dribble:

    You can give one to Fruella instead :evil_laug

    Thanks! It's all clear now.



    Another question :)
    Regarding the Extraplanar Chest, does the following still maintains? "don't put any items you've created in there."

    And what is that Cerullean's note? I can't read it :(
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2011
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