NPC inventory & AI manipulation

Discussion in 'General Modification' started by Livonya, Oct 25, 2007.

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  1. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

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    Agreed, maggit. Plus, dropping something is different than having it show up in your inventory. Here's the rule on Silence:

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silence.htm

    It says that if the target is a person or an object in a person's possession, then there is a save which negates the effect. I take this to mean it just fizzles & has no effect at all. Pity; it was more effective before. At least you could count on it to screw up one enemy spell, and more if the target failed the save. My take on it was the old (but not a house) rule. Is there anything they made better?
     
  2. Cujo

    Cujo Mad Hatter Veteran

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    Re: dropping items

    I think if it was easy or going to work properly trokia would've put that in the game. they did mention something about it in the game booklet.
     
  3. Half Knight

    Half Knight Gibbering Mouther

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    Touchè i hate thaving my backpack full, i keep selling stuff like potions, or clothes and always have space, so i didn't think on that. :(

    Mmmh..., they seem to have missed a lot of things...i'm inclined to think it was a messy thing, like Maggit say...

    Details, details..., i said it could appear in the inventory because, spotting a dagger in the floor could be a pain in the a$$...and when something it's unequiped, the inventory it's the first place to look...i bet that there's a few people that have found the dagger on the floor in the Emridy Meadows...
    More effective, and more annoying IMO, if i've succesfully passed the will check, why the spell would "ricochet" and still be there?? That way you're always at disadvantage, because no matter what you'll lose at least two rounds...
     
  4. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    I tried to implement a 'drop item' thing if you were caught stealing the stuff that was just lying around (a 'put it back' routine so to speak) but couldn't get it to work.

    By rights it should: while trying to implement the (unsuccessful) 'unequip' thing, to try to prevent NPCs walking around armed, I tried switching off the OF_INVENTORY flag that ToEEWB auto-adds to new inventory items. It caused the items to turn up at the feet of the NPCs rather than in their inventory. However, my 'drop the item' script didn't replicate this. Maybe the script was broken :shrug: - keeping a handle on items can be tricky when you are swapping over to a dialogue (in this case, with the guard who was saying 'drop it or be arrested') so maybe I just got my 'attachee's mixed up. But that's my experience.
     
  5. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

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    Not a ricochet at all. It's because the target is getting one chance to avoid the effects of the spell. The spell itself has still been cast, and it effects an area. The original full name was Silence, 15' radius. If the target saved, the spell didn't fizzle. It just took effect like the target moved just enough and at the correct time to avoid being where the point of creation was during casting; then the person(s) not wishing to be silenced had to move out of the affected area. Much more effective against casters & audible forms of attack. Does a Fireball fizzle if you miss the intended target? No, it explodes when it impacts something, either in front of or behind the intended target. This is why most people target a spot for it to detonate rather than relying on it to hit fighter-x full in the chest. It just goes bang & burns everybody who can't move out of the way in time. It'd tend to be blocked by a closed door rather than blow it open. It isn't an RPG, its just a grenade. People who duck & cover are able to avoid damage. Same theory as the other. If you save, then you've moved enough to avoid the spell.
     
  6. Half Knight

    Half Knight Gibbering Mouther

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    You can't compare Fireball with Silence, they don't have the same mechanic. If fireball where intended to work the same way, it will have a ranged melee attack check instead of just a reflex ST (or it will be unavoidable like magic missile), and still you're not able to shrug off the effects, you take some damage...
    "its just a grenade"...that's it.
    you don't aim a grenade to a enemy (well, maybe you could knock him off :p ), you throw it hoping to get as many targets you can...

    I cast something on you against your will, if you have enough, you resist it, it's pretty simple. That's for the spells of that kind have two working ways...

    With the old rule what happened with Grease?
    I cast it on you so you can't use weapons, you resist...and you still fall to the ground, because the spell "ricochetted" a few feet of you? Then what? you try to raise, but spell it's there, and fall again...
    Same with glitterdust, you avoid, but the glittering still floats and cover you...

    That's why the spell it's a two way working, so you can think before use it...you're not going to throw silence to Falrinth, it's pretty obvious that it will save, but you cast it next to him (probably behind so he has to go forward to your loving arms, or backwards trought the full diameter instead of radius of effect)
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2007
  7. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    I fail to see the difference between Half_Knight's ricocheting Grease spell that goes off next to you and Lord Spike's 'missed you slightly' Fireball that goes off next to you.

    Maybe its just me :tired:
     
  8. Half Knight

    Half Knight Gibbering Mouther

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    Mmmh, how can i explain... buff, longwinded explanation incoming!

    A Fireball is not intended to be aimed. It's just an area effect spell ( with instant duration). You can't say "i shoot a fireball to the front fighter". You can say "i throw a fireball directly in front of the fighter" (actually you can activate the fireball instead of expecting to hit something)
    If the fireball spell where a missile spell, it will had a melee ranged touch attack thus subjected to a miss, instead of a save which is subjected to the opponent roll.
    A missile spell that misses is lost (it can be argued, yes, after all it should keep flying t'ill encounters something...) because it can't find a "legal" target, which was the missed opponent.

    Let's put it this way: a targeted spell works because it has a "sender" (the caster) and a "receiver" (the target). If there's no receiver, there is no effect. (note that i don't say "no spel". The spell it's activated, but there is no effect)

    The trick with the fireball is that it doesn't need a target. You throw, and it's done, and the other deals as they can with consecuences.
    The trick with the silence is that it can be optional. If you just throw it, it works. But, if you use it as a targeted spell it has the chance that the receiver resists, and thus is lost.

    If i cast blindness on you, and you resist, then the spell "ricochets" to another target?
    NO. It just fizzles. (Again, it can't be compared) But Blindness it's just one option (targeted spell). Fireball it's just one option (area effect), and Silence/Grease/Darkness etc, have the two options, and it's up to you where and when to use it. That's for the save, so you can have the chance to resist, other way you always get affected.

    The reflex save in a fireball it's to reflect what L_S says, you get (more or less) out of the way but the spell doesn't affect YOU directly so still have some effects; a will save is a way to negate something that affects YOU directly...but if you resist and still got affected there's no difference...and no sense in having a save roll.
     
  9. wizgeorge

    wizgeorge Prophet of Wizardy

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    If fireball was fully implemented, things would be different. As is, there is no collateral damage. Wood, cloth, paper(scrolls), potions, etc would need a saving throw or be lost. It would take a lot of writing to set that up. Platemail+1 would probabley save, but that scroll of flamestrike wouldn't. The wizards would need to think about such things before they cast. 12 bugbears, burn them. An 8th level cleric with scrolls and potions, use the wand of magic missiles.
     
  10. Half Knight

    Half Knight Gibbering Mouther

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    The save for items is asumed to be the same as yours... You could implement optional rules (it's explained in the PHB or DMG) to having more realistic ways, but i usually skip them for the sake of the game...
    But mainly it's probably because Fireball isn't actually a real ball of fire: it's a tiny lava-like bead, that shoots from your finger, and upon contact it burst in pure heat...enough to damage living things, but inert material...i suppose

    Very much different than the spell Burning hands, which is pure fire (and it can set things on fire) :txtsmilie
     
  11. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    The optional rules would be worth doing for all sorts of reasons. If every bugbear in the Temple had a chance of having his potions smash when he fell dead to the ground, it would certainly change the loot you got (and the cries of 'this is unbalanced!' too).

    It would be a big job to implement, but if it was done in one large script, and then that was called by a single simple call... it would definitely be worth doing.
     
  12. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

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    Baloney; otherwise, why would you need to roll a ranged touch attack to get it to go where you want, including through an arrow slit?

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm

    You can aim it at a person, or at the floor, or at the roof over a wizard's head; anything. People just usually pick a spot to hit, as I said. No pressure, just a burst of fire. And you do have to aim grenades when you throw them, kind of like throwing a snowball. If you don't then you are wasting grenades - or snowballs, as the case may be.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2007
  13. wizgeorge

    wizgeorge Prophet of Wizardy

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    I suppose I should breakdown and buy the 3.5 books. I'm an old 1st edition guy and the DM made us roll a saving throw for items recovered from the fireball area. I remember cloth robes and scrolls always failed. Wooden chests and stuff inside had to be rolled also.

    Speaking of grenades, Medal Of Honor grenades get the enemy but collateral damage isn't implemented, except in certain cases, like a radio room. Between the super nazi and grenades, i've been killed so many times i've lost count. I'll never get even with that super nazi. Talk about hard to kill. He'd make his saving throw every time just like Iuz.
     
  14. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Gotta love games where you can shoot out the windows, blow up the crates etc... Personally I think using 'nades in MoH is cheap, and I try to do everything with the pistol (German silenced one or American colt as the case may be). Nothing like pistol-whipping some goose-stepper into submission (I am refering to MoH: Allied Assault, btw).

    Now, getting this thread back on track... Liv: a couple of observations.

    The amended heartbeat file causes it to sidestep the Wild Empathy check, due to the first lines having

    if (attachee.leader_get() == OBJ_HANDLE_NULL or game.combat_is_active()):
    __________return RUN_DEFAULT

    ie the animal isn't in the party then nothing happens and the Wild Empathy check isn't made. In KotB, that means animals, who trigger a wild empathy check as to whether or not they attack you (they normally do ;) ) just stand there.

    Also, your checks for changing strategies: I notice they start with

    if (npc.stat_level_get( stat_hp_current ) <= -1):

    to check if the critter is unconscious - thats a nice touch ;) but it also sidesteps the Diehard feat, and even a raging diehard type might realise he needs to slightly alter his tactics once he is below 0. Was there a reason you didn't just use

    if critter_is_unconscious(npc) != 1 ?

    Otherwise I must say, its a nice change being able to import huge files and having them just compile :)
     
  15. wizgeorge

    wizgeorge Prophet of Wizardy

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    I'm kind of excited about the AI possibilities,coming up, as a lot of people are. Liv is doing a wonderful thing for the game as it could use sure use an upgrade in AI strategy.

    Speaking of AI, the new MOH has the best graphics and AI i've ever seen in a game. At 6.34GB, and a multi-million budget with 50/60 writers you can make AI like that. But still, Liv's work will be a big improvement at no-cost. Fine by me.
     
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