"Hendrick, Culbert, and Luz"

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by Gaear, Sep 27, 2012.

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  1. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    lol, seriously? I guess maybe if they had a winking smiley after it I would not take it literally. ;)

    If you need further evidence, there's this:

    I don't know if you remember Lord Spike from years ago here at Co8, but he was widely recognized as a pen and paper D&D authority, having DMed countless campaigns by the sound, and he was firmly of the opinion that Iuz was untouchable as well. Really, I see no wiggle room on this absent the use of 'depends on what the definition of the word "is" is' maneuvering.

    As for those unfortunates for whom Cuthbert didn't intervene, I strongly suspect that they were indeed screwed; as near as I can tell, old school PnP D&D was all about the school of hard knocks, limited and governed to some degree by the mercies of the DM. We don't have one of those. :p
     
    Gaear, Oct 15, 2012
    #31
  2. GuardianAngel82

    GuardianAngel82 Senior Member

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    Sure we do: MACHINE, THE MERCILESS!
     
    GuardianAngel82, Oct 16, 2012
    #32
  3. Sitra Achara

    Sitra Achara Senior Member

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    Well, that's militant atheism for you :)

    But, consider this other snippet from the module:

    The Orb of Golden Death is indeed a powerful artifact, capable of summoning demons (back then - it was up to a Hezrou or Glabrezu IIRC) and casting various spells, but I don't see the enormous delta between a party packing the completed Yellowskull and an otherwise very well prepared party.

    So the way I see it, going by the above and his listed stats and abilities, he's not quite that omnipotent, though it'd be no small feat to defeat him when played intelligently.
     
    Sitra Achara, Oct 17, 2012
    #33
  4. SCO

    SCO Member

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    G0od job removing content, that surely will stop the complaints...

    not.

    Face it people want to kill Iuz and St. C. I certainly do.
    Make it as difficult a fight as you want (you already 'beefed it', i presume on a misguided attempt to make people not kill the poor little demigod), but i'd suggest making the AI be a bit more variated than rushing in a hammering with a big sword.

    SETTING BE DAMNED!!!

    I'd also strongly suggest to screw the backand forth if it can't happen. If St. C. would not see Iuz, St. C. does not come to save anyone. At least then there might not be 5 or 6 St. C. around. Or try to use a form of communicaton that doesn't depend of the buggy dialog engine. Pity the game doesn't have barks like fallout.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2012
    SCO, Oct 22, 2012
    #34
  5. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    SCO, consider this my one intervention on your behalf: you need to change your tone. Chop-chop. Everyone here behaves and treats each other with respect, and you must too. That means no talking down, no phony internet badass acts, etc., etc. Won't fly here, bro.

    :no: Removing what content? And what complaints? As far as I can tell, you are the only one complaining. I realize that's just ... well, it's who you are, but please don't try to sell me that without making a calm, thougtful, convincing case. I'll listen if you do it that way.
     
    Gaear, Oct 22, 2012
    #35
  6. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Okay, turns out that Barkinar is actually the only guy who may wander into that fight, not Deggum or Senshock. (Odd, I always thought Senshock did. ;))

    Anyway, the first revision of this is going to ship with 7.5 this weekend. It seems to work pretty well on my end but there's really no way of knowing for sure without much wider testing, so player feedback here will be important.

    The main potential issue that remains, as far as I can tell, is the Hedrack-Iuz summoning interaction, being as Iuz is still summoned near Hedrack and if you are hiding or far away, he may not be able to switch to conversation with you and/or target you. We could potentially fix this in a few different ways, but I basically want to get some player feedback first.

    I also haven't tweaked any NPC spellcasting here at this point, which is pretty lame on the part of the generic wizards. May do that later. And I haven't bulletproofed any Hedrack dialogue conditions, so any potential goofiness that was there before (acts like he never met you before when you see him later, thinks you're the jolly green giant, etc.) will still be there. One thing at a time.
     
    Gaear, Oct 24, 2012
    #36
  7. SCO

    SCO Member

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    The content i refered too was being able to fight and kill St. C., which if i read your fix correctly is now impossible.
     
    SCO, Oct 30, 2012
    #37
  8. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Yes, being as it only ever happened when the routine failed and that it was never intended, it's now bulletproofed (hopefully) to never occur. Making sure something that was never intended to happen doesn't happen isn't really removing content.
     
    Gaear, Oct 30, 2012
    #38
  9. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    So, are players having any better luck with this now in 7.5?
     
    Gaear, Dec 3, 2012
    #39
  10. sirchet

    sirchet Force for Goodness Moderator Supporter

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    I shall try to prolong his death next time to test it. Last time the H man went down for the count when my rogue hit him when he was flat footed and killed him on the spot.

    It's kind of hard not to kill him right away being he only has 40-50 HP's. ;)
     
    sirchet, Dec 3, 2012
    #40
  11. Nightcanon

    Nightcanon Garrulous Halfling

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    He's not that dangerous, though. First time I fought him I snuffed him in the first round, since that's my usual policy with enemy spellcasters (and my policy in general at the time was '4 fireballs into the room first, ask questions later'); when I found out he summons more interesting prey it turns out he can be distracted by low level summonings while mopping up the rest of the mob, then brought down to the right HP with magic missiles...
    I've never had a problem with Cuthbert not working as intended- though admittedly I've mainly played this fight to take down Iuz inside 3 rounds in the past.. will have a look when.I get there though.
     
    Nightcanon, Dec 4, 2012
    #41
  12. Goshi3156

    Goshi3156 Dire Badger

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    Great minds think alike. Fireball can be used to solve all our everyday problems!

    A group of enemies waiting to swarm you in the next room? Use Fireball.
    An evil necromancer is trying to summon an army of walking dead to rain terror on the world? Use Fireball.
    Cryonax the Archomental of Ice is about the invade the material plane? Use Fireball.
    Your boss has just docked your pay at work? Use Fireball.
    Door to door salesman bothering you? Use Fireball.
    Kids on your lawn? Use Fireball.
    Someone just spilled their soda on your fine new coat? Use Fireball.
    A duck? Use Fireball.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2012
    Goshi3156, Dec 4, 2012
    #42
  13. gazra_1971

    gazra_1971 Knights of Legend

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    I just did the Hedrack combat, but this time I let Hedrack live so that he summoned Iuz, both Iuz and St. Cuthbert behaved as intended (St. Cuthbert resurrected the NPC Taki who was in my party and who was killed by Iuz), but when the combat resumed after Iuz and St. Cuthbert disappeared, the game temporarily locked up for approximately 1 minute, then the game started responding again as normal, then just after the combat ended, I started to scroll the screen but the game temporarily locked up again (but this time the lock up lasted for approximately 2 mintues). So, to sum up, the Hedrack/Iuz/St. Cuthbert combat worked as intended for me except that the game temporarily locks up both during and after the combat (on my computer).

    After the combat, I noticed that Taki had not lost any XP from dying and had actually gained about 500 XP from the combat, and I also noticed that his death did not register in the Ego section of the Logbook.

    I can do the combat a few more times if you want me to test it further.

    P.S. I did not experience any lag AT ALL when I did the Hedrack combat during my playthrough of 7.5.0 NC (where I killed Hedrack before he could summon Iuz).
     
    gazra_1971, Dec 14, 2012
    #43
  14. sirchet

    sirchet Force for Goodness Moderator Supporter

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    Do you think Taki may have suffered a death XP penalty and then gained enough from the combat to bring him back to 500 more than he had?

    How much XP did the rest of the group get?

    Is Taki good or evil?
     
    sirchet, Dec 14, 2012
    #44
  15. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Sounds like lag, gazra.
     
    Gaear, Dec 14, 2012
    #45
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