3.5 Touch spells

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by Basil the Timid, May 31, 2008.

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  1. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Well there you go. I will just add that I am pretty sure Point Blank Shot DOES work on rays in ToEE.

    "Stunning Fist" being applied to spells sure stinks of canned parmesan...
     
  2. Basil the Timid

    Basil the Timid Dont Mention the War

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    So, the question of precision-based damage being applied to rays, orbs, and touch remains. If not, could it / would it be applied in the future?
     
  3. thearioch

    thearioch Need More Cowbell

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    It sounds like some whine should be served with it at least....

    Anyway, do any other Monk ranged weapons (wither Monk-specific such as shuriken or regular such as crossbow) get Stunning Fist? I suspect not (at least in RAW). I'd personally say either both shuriken and rays can be used or cannot be used with "stunning Fist." And if pressed, I'd say 'not.'

    --thearioch

    Edit: Ignore the above and see my next post in this thread.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2008
  4. Basil the Timid

    Basil the Timid Dont Mention the War

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    Stunning Fist cannot be applied to ranged attacks. It CAN be applied in conjunction with Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch, Produce Flame (melee), Flame Blade (cheesy), etc....
     
  5. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Ahhhh, TOUCH attacks - well ok, delivering your shocking grasp or chill touch with a stunning blow makes some sense at least.
     
  6. thearioch

    thearioch Need More Cowbell

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    I went ahead and checked the rules, and think I have the correct answer: None of your examples are likely implementable in ToEE and Flame Blade isn't allowed in 3.5 at all.

    Chill Touch, Produce Flame (Melee), and Shocking Grasp are all Touch Attacks which (as the descriptions are silent) may be delivered with an unarmed melee attack as well a a Touch attack. The difference is that an unarmed melee attack uses the target's normal AC while the Touch attack alone uses the target's Touch AC (usually lower).

    I don't think the ToEE engine can handle this (I may be wrong -- I am by no means an expert)). Also, normal unarmed attacks draw AoOs, Touch attacks don't (Monks and other with Improved Unarmed Attack would not suffer AoOs either). Another complex scenario the ToEE engine would need to handle.

    Flame Blade should never be able to deliver Stunning Fist -- while its attack is a Touch attack, the spell description specifically says that the attack is made as if using a Scimitar (i.e., the rule allowing Touch attacks to be made as if unarmed should not apply in this case). As Stunning Fist requires an unarmed attack, one should not be able to deliver use Stunning Fist with Flame Blade.

    --thearioch



    --thearioch
     
  7. Basil the Timid

    Basil the Timid Dont Mention the War

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    I agree and that is why I implied Flame Blade should be an exception (serious sharp cheese stench).

    I thought Greylan said he had some experience with discharging during a Flurry, but I suppose it didn't calculate the unarmed strike. Perhaps if one checks Deal Lethal Damage or Flurry of Blows, then the engine can require a proper hit vs full AC and then stack both damages.

    At any rate, if the troublesome issue is that the engine cannot handle the choice between the target's Touch AC or Full AC, then let's make it simple - it always chooses Full AC if the character has Improved Unarmed Strike and it always chooses Touch AC if not.

    The Sneak Attack situation does not have this complication of choice. Rays, orbs, and Touch spells always use the Touch AC.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2008
  8. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    If no-ones answering, I suspect you will have to do the research yourself and post the results here.
    :blink: O dear...
     
  9. Basil the Timid

    Basil the Timid Dont Mention the War

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    OK, now that I have sorted out my start game problems, I have done some testing on ranged & melee touch spells. I am convinced that there is no stacking with sneak attacks or improved unarmed strike, and I have also noticed that one cannot cast, move, and touch which is RAW. This applies to Shocking Grasp, but not to Inflict Light Wounds. Strange, indeed!

    Is any plan to make Touch Spells follow RAW in terms of stacking with Unarmed Strike and Sneak Attack? Is there any agreement as to when a CMF 5.0.6 patch will be available?

    I would be happy to work on this if someone can point me in the right direction.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2008
  10. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    I'll pick this up here rather than the New Feats thread since it has nothing to do with new feats.

    Basil - I have been giving this a lot of thought and I have thought of a way to make this work, for sneak attack anyway. I can probably write a script that can check if the target is flatfooted or flanked, and then deliver the appropriate amount of sneak attack damage manually - then call that script from every relevant spell.

    What I will need you to do is:

    - give me an exhaustive list of EVERY spell that is effected, and making sure they are RAW please (no hypotheticals or house-rules).

    - make sure you clearly indicate what are ranged touch attacks (so they only deliver in event of being flatfooted, within 30' etc) as opposed to melee touch attacks which can also be done with flanking.

    At my end I will start on a script that checks if the target is flat-footed, flanked, stunned or generally in need of a good sneak attack.
     
  11. Basil the Timid

    Basil the Timid Dont Mention the War

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    @Ted, I am REALLY happy you have decided to take-on this bull by the horns.

    c.f. Complete Arcane, pp.85-86
    The following spells qualify for both sneak attacks and critical damage unless mentioned otherwise.

    From the manual.pdf:
    Inflict _ wounds (excluding Mass) - touch
    Searing Light - ranged
    Contagion - touch
    Slay Living - touch
    Produce Flame - ranged and touch
    Acid Splash - ranged
    Ray of Frost - ranged
    Shocking Grasp - touch
    Chill Touch - touch; sneak ok, both strength (Fort neg.) and negative damage doubled on critical
    Ray of Enfeeblement - ranged; sneak ok, no crits
    Melf's Acid Arrow - ranged; sneak ok, crit doubles only first round damage
    Vampiric Touch - Touch

    Darmagon’s New and Changed Spells (5.0.0 release):
    Ray of Clumsiness - ranged; sneak ok, no crits
    Disintegrate - ranged

    Are there any newer spells?
    Flame Blade - Touch
    Fire Seeds (Acorn Grenades) - ranged
    Harm - Touch
    Sunbeam - ranged (Undead and Drow beware)
    Scorching Ray - ranged; critical, sneak attack, and P.B. shot can only apply to first ray
    Enervation - ranged
    Polar Ray - ranged
    Energy Drain - ranged
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2008
  12. thearioch

    thearioch Need More Cowbell

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    I'm not sure where you're going with this, Basil. IUS makes your unarmed attacks (a) deal lethal damage and (b) not trigger AoOs because you are considered armed. A Touch Attack is considered "armed", so should behave the same way. Are you asking about the higher unarmed damage monks do? If so, my understanding is that multiclassed monk/rogues would do the monk unarmed damage plus spell damage.

    --thearioch
     
  13. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Well I think he is asking if an unnarmed strike (with IUS) that fulfils sneak attack requirements will do sneak attack damage. Without doing anything drastic like looking it up, I will say yes based on what I read in the SRD yesterday.

    Not that it matters - spells run from scripts that can be changed, sneak attack and unnarmed strike run straight from the engine. We'd still need that reverse engineer to change those.
     
  14. Basil the Timid

    Basil the Timid Dont Mention the War

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    I know that in RAW, Monk/Rogues can Sneak Attack. I was just wondering how the engine handled it.

    I also wanted to clarify something. If for example an acid arrow gets a crit, the acid damage is doubled (on the first round only). If it qualifies for a sneak attack, the extra damage is also acid damage.

    In the case of spells or effects that deal energy drain or ability damage (not ability penalty), the critical doubles the effect (beware wights and wraiths, etc...). If these types of attacks, or one that results in an ability penalty, qualify for a sneak attack, then the extra damage is negative energy damage.

    Regarding Concealment (Blur, Displacement, Blink): Any concealment prevents Sneak Attacks! I only stumbled on that due to this research.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2008
  15. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Global Moderator

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    Ooooooooooooooookkkkaaaaaayyyyy so its going to be a long complicated script I'm writing with many bits that could bug-and-fail... I'll get on it.
     
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