Craft Arms & Armour & Cutlass question?

thanks for the info. so its like small swordlike weapon?

 

that is correct

that depends on where and when, the english civil war swords were heavyer than the french at that time but were still finessed

from my experience with using different swords/weapons all weapons are basicly the same at a basic level, you either swing it, thrust with it or dance with it, then theres how big the weapon is and if you use one or two hands to use it (some weaons cover more than one of these groups). then you get into fancy moves which aren't nessarily a prerequisite for bashing someones head in with it (like what the TRT said about the difference in technique with staffs around the world)

personally I think that weapons should be grouped into how you use them or how you could use them, it means that at a profincy level more weapons are avalible and you could pick up greataxe when you can't find your maul and still swing the business end into your opponent

 

But, I do NOT agree, hence the example I cited. I'm talking about the evolution of weapons and fighting styles in real history, not in the fantasy realm. What I will agree to is that this system simulates combat, and therefore cannot cover every possible permutation of weapons & fighting styles. It lumps things together from different periods in time AND blends styles of fighting into a simplified system for gaming, and thus your example of the quarter staff & bo staff.

 

Although this is immaterial really to the way the rules work, as they are intended to simulate combat in an abstract way, I will chip in here.

As a fencer myself I can tell you that the modern fencing epee is derived from what we think of as rapiers. It is, however, a lighter more balanced weapon nowadays, although not as light and flexible as you may think-you are probably thinking of the foil, which was a light court sword which developed out of the rapier when you imagine a whippy fragile blade. As an example of the difference between epee and foil, the epee is a much stiffer blade, still has a groove down the middle (historically to allow blood to flow out of the wound and prevent trapping of the blade), has a big guard and actually does hurt and bruise or even draw blood (through the protective clothing and even with a blunt tip) if you get a good hit in.

The historical rapier is difficult to pin down, as like many weapons it went through a process of evolution. The early rapiers had an edge as well as point. At one time the rapier was used "over lengthed" and was actually unbalanced, but you used a "main gauche" or left handed dagger to parry or finish your opponent.

Where 19th century swords as used in ships in the Napoleonic wars come into this, I am not sure but many of them were more like a sabre or a light longsword. I would probably say that the rules making cutlasses into scimitars would be right and officers swords would either class as longswords or maybe even rapiers or sabres/scimitars but with a different stylistic look.

As for the SABRE, it was actually used in warfare as recently as the first world war. Those of you thinking of the fencing sabre are not thinking of this particular weapon of war, of course. The WWI British cavalry sabre is a brute of a weapon and very heavy both in blade and total weapon weight (definitely a longsword). The fencing sabre is very light and whippy, perhaps more like the officers' swords in Napoleonic ships, definitely like the light cavalry sabre in the Napoleonic wars. The heavy cavalry used the weight of man and horse and sword to batter down the enemy defence and hack him down like a butcher chopping meat. The light cavalry sabre was used for cavalry duels or slashing eyes and faces of broken infantry as you rode past, as its lighter and faster to use.

 

Well, I'm afraid there are too many posts to answer effetively to all...

Let's not lose the original question: should cutlasses be considered as
Scimitars
Size: M; Cost: 15mo; Dam: 1d6; Crit; 18-20 x2; Wt: 1,8Kg; Type: Slash
or as Rapiers
Size: M; Cost: 20mo; Dam: 1d6; Crit; 18-20 x2; Wt: 1,35Kg; Type: Puncture*
* Can be Finessed

The differences, you can see are quite few: slashing or puncture? It will be quite hard to convince me a cutlass is a P weapon, but YMMV.
The whole point, of course, is the finesse thing. After all those posts, I'm still convinced, without entering in the details, that the cutalss should not be a finesseable weapon. So, it should adhere with the Scimitar profile. As above, YMMV.

Cujo: The English Civil War civilian weapon I know is quite light, if the french equivalent is even lighter, it should border a foil... The military weapon, on the other hand, I always considered it a longsword equivalent...
Your idea of proficencies, quite realistic, is what AD&D 2nd ed Skills and Powers proposed with the proficencies groups. That were times when every single weapon listed had a separate proficency, and there were problems to solve. These problems may have been solved by the current "Simple-Matrial" weapon proficencies: it doen't matter if using an axe is different from using a rapier: a trained warrior should be able to use both.

Lord_Spike: I'm afraid I'm not getting your point: I well know that: in fact I'm not proposing a new cutlass category, just arguing that it should fall under the scimitar one and not under the rapier one.

TimSmith: Very interesting and very correct, but I think we should restrain ourselves from the modern and contemporary blades, like epee and sabre (a weapon that saw military use up to 1941). In D&D we should consider the "Rapier" as a wide weapon category that includes various civilian blades, lighter than longswords, without too many headaches. Since we're talking about cutlasses, the paragon should be the XVII century, the time when rapiers were overlenght and used with main-gauches. It was the time of the greatswords, too.

 

That help?

 

So lord spike & master rogue trader, which one would be best to slay an Ogre with? the Morbidly Sharp Sabre, The Fatal Main Gauche, The Flesh Hewing Rapier or the the bringer of the Heartblight, the Cutlass? (i like using appraisal language )

 

Greatsword is my personal favorite. :dead:

 

Do I get the option of pincushion him with missile fire? Polearms? Heavily enchanted longswords? No?
Since the sabre is not in the game and the main gauche is somewhat a dagger (NO, I do not want to start a new argument: if someone feels the MG is not "somewhat a dagger", he/she is certainly right) and I would risk being poisoned by ogre's feet stench in closing to the fell giant, the choice would be between the Rapier and the Cutlass. For Lord Spike this is no choice at all, I guess (I guess) since they should share the same profile, while to me... Well the rapier looks fancier, and seems a weapon that allows you better bragging with the girls

 

Lord Spike: [Entire post #19 not quoted for it would be uselessly redundant]
Yes, that you did not agree, did not escape me, it was pretty clear even for me... What I'm unable to get is the point you're exposing in the rest of your post.
You speak of history and not fantasy. I hoped I was doing that too... Many D&D settings do a mess mixing and matching equipment from various ages: we simply have to live with it, I'm afraid.
Now, what we are arguing about is whether the cutlass would be used (in usual melee conditions: we do not have detailed mounted combat rules, and in any case TOEE does not have mounted combat at all) more like a scimitar/sabre (with, I guess, wide, powerful slashes taking advantage of the curved edge) or more like a rapier (that, not being a fencer myself, I have been reported as being a matter of using stabs and short slashes, taking advantage mainly of the point of the weapon).
At the moment, I think we both exposed our best arguments, and still do not find an agreement. As my experience in debating suggests, I do not think we'll get anywhere anytime soon.
Now, would it have been a wargame or something anyway competitive, it may have been important, but being such a tiny matter on a RPG it may well be dropped unless something new does come out...

 

If you can't figure out what my point was, then there is no further use discussing this. So, consider it dropped.

 

well i can solve his earlier problem. cast magic vestment on the mystic garb, then craft on it with craft magic arms & armor. +3. yay.

 

Sorry to open this can of worms again, but I noticed discussion of whether or not a cutlass should be finessable was centering around the amount of "skill" or "finesse" would be used in wielding such a weapon. My problem is that weapon finess doesn't actually work that way om 3.5e. A cutlass may be crude when compared to other swords, but it is also lighter. In 3.5e, weapon finesse is applied based on how light or (in some cases) well balanced a weapon is. Given that a hand axe and a light mace, two weapons that aren't exactly used in fencing, are finessable and that a cutlass is substantially lighter than a sabre or scimitar I see no reason why weapon finesse wouldn't work with a cutlass....crude design or not.