The case of 0rion79: opinions needed!

Discussion in 'General Modification' started by Agetian, Jan 29, 2006.

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What should we do about our situation with 0rion79?

  1. Ignore the matter. Just let it be, whatever happens.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%

  2. Try to work things out by negotiations (only publicly, at the Co8 boards)

    2 vote(s)
    8.7%

  3. Try to work things out by negotiations (elect Cerulean the Blue to be the spokesman)

    7 vote(s)
    30.4%

  4. Try to work things out by negotiations (elect someone else to be the spokesman)

    2 vote(s)
    8.7%

  5. Keep the sanctions, without any negotiations, and only lift them if 0rion79 redeems himself.

    11 vote(s)
    47.8%

  6. I can't care less.

    1 vote(s)
    4.3%
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  1. Moosehead

    Moosehead Rubber nipple

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    oh. in that case, i'm for CtB being elected spokesman, and doing the talking. i don't orion is really capable of understanding what the problem is otherwise.

    i had voted for the hardline stance until he redeems himself.
     
    Moosehead, Jan 30, 2006
    #16
  2. Heavydan85

    Heavydan85 Drinking Champion

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    I am a political theory guy...let me negotiate...ok political theory means i would kill to get ahead in life...maybe blue is better
     
    Heavydan85, Jan 30, 2006
    #17
  3. Agetian

    Agetian Attorney General Administrator

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    Well, what do we have so far: 10 votes for negotiations (among them 6 votes for Cerulean the Blue to be the spokesman, which is the majority), and 7 votes for sanctions without any negotiations.

    If the situation doesn't change within next 24 hours, I'd suggest we negotiate. I would at least partly agree that 0rion may simply not otherwise understand what the terms of the Circle of Eight are. :)

    So, 24 more hours to finish voting and telling your opinions, guys, if someone else forgot to vote or wanted to say something in addition. Afterwards (maybe even a little sooner) I'll close the poll and the thread, and will give you the bottom line.

    - Agetian
     
    Agetian, Jan 30, 2006
    #18
  4. Cujo

    Cujo Mad Hatter Veteran

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    the more I read the more vengeful I feel, either do the work yourself or give credit where it's due.

    I think that I'll take Allyx's Verbobonc mod and bastardise it, fuck up some of it and then say I made it.
     
    Cujo, Jan 31, 2006
    #19
  5. Lord_Spike

    Lord_Spike Senior Member Veteran

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    (More spam...this time by me...)

    You could make it all sort of evil, like, and call it....Dyvers.

    :mrhappy:

    I'd like to add a serious note, lest it be thought that my earlier post has reflected a change in my hard-line stance. I've merely toned down my rhetoric in order to give preference to the modders, especially those who think he might be reformed (or find redemption) if given another opportunity. If it's made plain to him, and he still recidivates, then we really did give him 'every' opportunity. It can't do much (if any, really) more damage than what's been done; it could fix or reduce old damage; we'd have a clear conscience on future actions. What's it hurt to talk? We can always go back to our teeth if our tongues fail us.

    *Looks with caution at the dreadful, gory fangs of Cujo*
     
    Lord_Spike, Jan 31, 2006
    #20
  6. krunch

    krunch moving on in life

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    IMO - Orion should apologize to the modding team at Co8.
    * Orion79 was the one who bastardized everything with minor changes while leaving files intact and in place, called all of it his own work [his intellectual property] and said no one can change it.

    "Keep the sanctions, without any negotiations, and only lift them if 0rion79 redeems himself."

    What more needs to be said? It's that simple, people.
     
    krunch, Jan 31, 2006
    #21
  7. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Sorry to be a "pisser" (as Ted might say) at this late date, but I've been cruising some old posts this evening and would like to submit the following for your consideration in this matter before we formally decide on anything:

    • Nowhere in Co8 history have I been able to detect another modder who became 'rogue' like Orion has. As near as I can tell, he is the only modder ever to decide that he could not tolerate the will of the group and that he would become an entity outside of it.

    • Despite the above, Orion really is not independant, as he is using the very essence of Co8 game modification going all the way back to version 1.0.0 as his launching pad. That is a huge amount of work by an unknowable list of modders. And yet this guy presumes to declare in his readme: "This module is 100% at Co8 disposal and may be modified at will as long as changes have a reason to be and my name is always reported as first creator of this mod." Let's be direct here for a moment. Orion is the creator of one rather creepy little corner of this mod. (Yes, I have run the Toffee version to have a look around.) Orion's efforts in the whole amount to certainly no more than any common contributor, and depending on who you ask, may in fact amount to no more than a cheap and sleazy impersonation of real modding. And yet he is the "first creator of this mod," a mod that is in essence the bulk of Co8 modding efforts over the last two years with a peculiar Orion stamp on top? This is simply not true. The plain fact is that Orion himself is a fairly minor contributor to "Orion's Complete Fixes," within the larger perspective.

    • Bear in mind that allowing Orion to post his mod at SP or elsewhere, being based as strongly as it is on Co8 material, sort of tacitly implies that we endorse it. If I'm not mistaken, what I think most modders don't mind is someone using Co8 material as a basis for some private modding effort, to be used in one's own games for example. What I think we all would most definitely mind is this thing being peddled as some sort of official alternative to Co8 releases, especially considering that Orion has spurned us, and this despite the fact that Co8 material remains part and parcel of the mod. Given this, I've come to believe that Co8 should formally condemn this fucking thing.

    • Cujo, who tends to see these things for what they really are, stated it very well and very simply above. If Orion wants to separate himself from us, the work of the modding community should be separated from him. Let him reinvent the wheel. If he can't (and Ted demonstrated this likelihood very well in his blog) then he should have no recourse but to operate within the group, and to comply with the consensus that the group naturally forms. He should have been doing this all along.
    What's the upshot of all this? Simple. We need to remember who we are and where we've been as a community, get ourselves a little backbone, and decide to piss on this fucking turd.

    End rant. Gaear out. :smarty:
     
    Gaear, Jan 31, 2006
    #22
  8. Agetian

    Agetian Attorney General Administrator

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    Good input, Gaear! That pretty much sums it up. The situation in the poll has come to a tie: 10 people for negotiations, and 10 people for no negotiations. Judging by the recent shift in the public opinion I can see the the "no negotiations" part is so far dominating. Keep the opinions coming for now, guys, if someone would like to express his point of view there is still time.

    - Agetian
     
    Agetian, Jan 31, 2006
    #23
  9. Shiningted

    Shiningted I want my goat back Administrator

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    Ok, I'm gonna waver again and be a pussy... despite how much it pissed me off to open his "Kurosawa" character and find it was Ah Fong having been <graphic description deleted>, I still don't mind if people make new stuff off the Co8 stuff (well, mine anyway) and distribute it seperately as long as they give credit (and preferably ADD to, not change, our efforts, or give credit to what they are changing).

    I'm not thinking of 0rion so much as the thousand folks who downloaded his mod. At the end of the day I do what I do for them, even if I never meet them, know them or get any credit from them.

    0rion represents, to me (other than a plagiarising idiot) simply an example of optional stuff. Optional is very hard to do for us, since we all have to work off the same protos.tab etc or we start crashing each other's efforts (unlike in other modding communities where u can pick and choose what mods to run). And I can't help remembering my first mod was an add-on to Allyx's 'ioun stones' mods, whcih were also a series of options designed for different tastes.

    Anyways, I don't mind him using my stuff if he changes completely and does it properly. Of course, for those who want to tell him to get stuffed and refuse to allow him to use theirs, well, no argument here, that serves him right.
     
    Shiningted, Jan 31, 2006
    #24
  10. Cujo

    Cujo Mad Hatter Veteran

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    I'm pissed off at the way he did what he did - Co8 go fuck yourselves, but thanks for all this stuff I can put my name on.

    I don't care if Allyx or Ted or anyone made a masive uncompadable mod, we've got Toffee so I can change mods easily, they might be doing their own thing but they're still acting as part of the COMMUNITY, being helpful, discussing things to see what we all think is best. Everyone else thats being a seperatist is doing it in a way that doesn't make them seem like an asshole - I bet most of you didn't even notice - KotB how seperate is that but look at how Ted acts, I want to help him, but right now I want hunt down the little theif and show him what you can do with a hacksaw, a butcher knife, a ball peen hammer and a pen torch.

    we only need one faction here - we're all own own people from different parts of the world. We laugh, we fight, we come and go, but most people who have gone are more than wellcome to stop by. We have no leader - well kinda but he was sorta voted in as as soon as he invades morrowind I'll vote for someone else. If you're not for Co8 then don't use ANY of our stuff

    btw orion the thieving rules paladin has broken New Zealand law, he's used my art outside of a Co8 mod without my permission - In NZ art is automaticly copyrighted as soon as it's created - I made half my stuff from scratch. Now I know that I didn't ask trokia if I could use their stuff but then I never said what was theirs was mine

    Attribution: the right to be named as the autor/director of a work. This could be applyed when the work is used by someone else, the work has been commissioned, or ownership has been sold by the author

    Derogatoy Treament: the right to object to derogatory treatment of the work ie distortion or mutilation of the work or treatment prejudicial to the honour or reputation of the autor.

    False Attribution: the right to not have works falsely attributed to them, eg newspaper articles, programme code or paintings. This right would be in the addition to the possibility of any defamation claims.

    RE: orions bastardization - the words were english but I think that must be what Itallian looks like cos me nono readi it
     
    Cujo, Jan 31, 2006
    #25
  11. maalri

    maalri Immortal

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    Kind of you Ted, and this intimately affects you, as you were one who had their Mod ripped off,

    But, for Agetian and anyone else keeping score...

    I say stay hardline. VERY Hardline.
     
    maalri, Jan 31, 2006
    #26
  12. Taluntain

    Taluntain Established Member Administrator

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    I was never a believer in removing content after some other modders found fault with it (despite it practically always being justified). Because if a bunch of people have downloaded it before (and they have in this case), and used it without any major problems, they're likely to came back to SP looking for it again. When they don't find it, they usually fire mails off to me asking me why it's not there any more, then ask on our boards or Google around till they find it somewhere else. So basically the end result of removing that content is just making it that harder to find for people who've used it before. Sure, newcomers most likely won't know about it and won't look for it, but still...

    My philosophy has always been to let the people decide what they want to use on their own. If Orion gives proper credit and apologizes, why prevent people from using his (I use this qualifier loosely) mod if they want to? It's not like ToEE has such an overabundance of mods that one more or one less would make no difference. Of course, if something of mine was tampered with and then presented as someone else's without credit, I'd be very angry as well. But I'm trying to look at this from the mod users' perspective. Not many of them care about what goes on in the background.
     
    Taluntain, Jan 31, 2006
    #27
  13. Agetian

    Agetian Attorney General Administrator

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    Well, it's about time we finished polling you guys. So, we still don't have the dominating majority, but I can clearly see the position most modders take here. So far, it's staying hardline, and I support this opinion as well. I believe that 0rion79 has already figured out that he has to contact us in order to find out what our terms are. Yet he has made absolutely no action towards it.

    The following thought may sound somewhat rude so sue me. As for "one more mod or one less mod making no difference" - of course it makes no difference, we like it when a lot of mods start appearing... BUT - ONLY unless a mod that has appeared is the most impudent and outrageous instance of PLAGIARISM, which 0rion79's mod is. A lot of modders feel offended here, and they sure DO have a reason to feel that way.

    So, my bottom line is: stay hardline. The guy has almost surely figured out what he has to do by now. He's too proud of himself, so to speak, to talk to such bottom dwellers as we are. So, let things be as they are - unless 0rion79 comes here and talks to us, and APOLOGIZES, and GIVES THE DARN PROPER CREDIT, his mod must NOT get back online at the Sorcerers.

    He must NOT get away with this without an apology and proper credits in his mod, at the very least. And it must be HIS initiative to get out of this mess, not the Circle of Eight's.

    Well, yes - the end users must have the right to choose, but if EVERYTHING would have been judged by the end users' point of view, then who would darn care about the MODDERS? Because excuse me, but after such a mean act of stealing the work of several years and claiming it, some modders may simply lose interest in modding anymore, especially after being treated like that (in a "let it be" kind of way)! (God forbid!)

    Sorry if I offended someone's feelings by this post.

    - Agetian
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2006
    Agetian, Jan 31, 2006
    #28
  14. Allyx

    Allyx Master Crafter Global Moderator Supporter

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    If it makes you feel happier Agetian I will gladly change my vote from public negotiations, to hard line in an instant - my vote was more diplomatic than (I have come to realise) it should've been.
     
    Allyx, Jan 31, 2006
    #29
  15. Morpheus

    Morpheus Mindflayer Veteran

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    I initially voted for negotiations, but I'm having second thoughts. What is there to negotiate? 0rion79 has to meet our demands, period. Give credit where credit is due. Show some respect. Stop being a wanker.

    To be fair, even our modding idol Liv never included proper credits for past changes in her mods. Many of the modders don't. But then, usually they don't release their stuff as "indipendent" [sic] mod, claim they fixed "all" the bugs in the game (ha!), and call the work of other modders "bullshit". And most importantly, they don't leave Co8 in a huff because someone voices criticism about certain elements in their mod, and then release a mod largely based on the Co8 stuff, advertising this mod as THE BESTEST EVAR, and claiming full ownership of it.

    0rion79: If you take a book, tear out a few pages, scribble a few lines here and there, and make a few obscene drawings in the margins, do you think you can claim you wrote the book?
     
    Morpheus, Jan 31, 2006
    #30
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