[BUILD] Dwarf Cleric/Fighter

Discussion in 'The Temple of Elemental Evil' started by FredSRichardson, Jun 3, 2012.

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  1. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Established Member

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    Okay, I'm having a little trouble here. I want a second front line fighter who is also a healer. I decided to add in augmented summoning so that he can also produce decent fodder for the battle. This could come earlier if I was willing to wait on cleave, but I'm not sure I am... I'm having a little trouble tuning this:

    * Should I add more levels of fighter early on or will that hamper healing capability too much?
    * I found cleave and great cleave to be very useful for the front line guys, getting cleave early forces me to put off augment summoning for a while. Any thoughts on this tradeoff?
    * 10 levels of Cleric seemed right, but I wasn't sure. The major factor may be if crafting holy weapons is needed. I may want that to add holy damage to really good longsword...
    * What do you think of the feat line up in general?

    Deity: Heironeous (pick domains: GOOD and WAR for longsword proficiency and focus)


    Key: cmb_cst="combat casting", pwr_att="power attack", sf_con="spell focus (conjuration)", aug_sum="augment summoning", cft_aa="craft arms and armor", ext_trn="extra turning", "imp_trn"="improved turning","wf_ls="weapon focus (longsword)", ws_ls="weapon specilization (longsword)", imp_crt="improved ciritcal", gwf_ls="greater weapon focus (longsword)", imp_ini="improved initiative"


    Code:
    level	class	points	tumble	spl_cft	conc	feat	bonus	stat
    1	Cleric	10	2	4	4	cmb_cst
    2	Fighter 4	0.5	0.5	1		pwr_att
    3	Cleric	4	0.5	1	1	cleave
    4	Cleric	4	0.5	1	1			Str+1
    5	Cleric	4	0.5	1	1
    6	Cleric	4	0.5	1	1	sf_con
    7	Cleric	4	0.5	1	1
    8	Cleric	4	0.5	1	1			Str+1
    9	Cleric	4	0.5	1	1	aug_sum
    10	Cleric	4	0.5	1	1
    11	Cleric	4	0.5	1	1
    12	Fighter 4	0.5	0.5	1	[?]	grt_clv	Str+1
    13	Fighter	4	0.5	0.5	1
    14	Fighter	4	0.5	0.5	1		wea_spe
    15	Fighter	4	0.5	0.5	1	[?]
    16	Fighter	4	0.5	0.5	1		imp_crt	Str+1
    17	Fighter	4	0.5	0.5	1
    18	Fighter	4	0.5	0.5	1	[?]	gwf_ls
    19	Fighter	4	0.5	0.5	1
    20	Fighter	4	0.5	0.5	1		imp_ini	Str+1
    
    [?]: cft_aa, ext_trn, imp_trn
     
  2. sirchet

    sirchet Force for Goodness Moderator Supporter

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    If he's a dwarf you don't need to go with a Deity that grants longsword because he already has dwarven waraxe proficiency.

    Myself, I've found a pure dwarven cleric to be a very powerful character and a good tank, not to mention the VERY powerful spells granted later on in the game. ;)
     
  3. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Established Member

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    Wow, that's not a bad idea. I haven't tried out the Dwarven axe yet.

    On the flip side, the War domain does give weapon focus, and there are the plethora of great long swords in the game.

    What I really found lacking with my cleric in the last play through I did was "cleave" and "greater cleave". Making more than one wack in a round is very helpful. For that to work well you need a good bab, which you would get with divine might (I think).

    I don't know how much I'm missing by stopping cleric at level 10. I could throw in a few fighter levels early on to get the feats and then go full bore cleric the rest of the way.

    I know the summoning gets really good in the later game ;)
     
  4. Pygmy

    Pygmy Established Member Supporter

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    You need a character with eleven levels of cleric to cast heal (and thus craft a periapt of wound closure). If you don't want to follow that route resurrection/miracle requires seventeen levels of cleric - you certainly don't want to be using raise dead+restoration+ heal a few times on your wizard during the War of the Golden Skull [believe me I've tried].
     
  5. Daryk

    Daryk Veteran Member

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    I build my Cleric/Fighters to be level 12/8, mostly for the reasons Pygmy cites. 8th level Fighter is enough to get you Greater Weapon Focus, but you really only need 4 levels to get to a +16 BAB at 20th.
     
  6. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Established Member

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    Do you guys think there are any "must have" cleric feats? I have found the extend spell feat useful for longer acting divine power. Any thoughts on the turning feats?

    Is it worthwhile having the "augment summoning" feat which I'm spending two feats to get?

    I've never used the periapt of wound closure, any maybe I should... I haven't yet given my cleric "craft wondrous item". I usually use him for arms and armor and don't like tapping his XP too much...

    Thank you guys for the feedback! I have a definite feeling that I could play a cleric a little better than I do.
     
  7. General Ghoul

    General Ghoul Established Member

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    I find Improved Turning helps out to clear battlefields of weaker undead. This might come in handy for several fights.
     
  8. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Established Member

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    Thank you guys for the help!

    How does this look?

    Highlights: cleave at 4, augmented summoning at 6, great cleave at 12, crafting weapons at 15 and items at 18.

    Deity: Heironeous (pick domains: GOOD and WAR for longsword proficiency and focus)

    STR 18
    DEX
    CON
    INT
    WIS 18
    CHA


    Key: cmb_cst="combat casting", pwr_att="power attack", sf_con="spell focus (conjuration)", aug_sum="augment summoning", cft_aa="craft arms and armor", cft_wi="craft wondrous item", ext_trn="extra turning", "imp_trn"="improved turning","wf_ls="weapon focus (longsword)", ws_ls="weapon specilization (longsword)", ic_ls="improved ciritcal (longsword)", gwf_ls="greater weapon focus (longsword)", imp_ini="improved initiative"


    Code:
    level	class	points	tumble	spl_cft	conc	feat	bonus	stat
    1	Cleric	10	2	4	4	cmb_cst
    2	Fighter 4	0.5	0.5	1		pwr_att
    3	Cleric	4	0.5	2	1	sf_con
    4	Fighter 4	0.5	0.5	1		cleave	Str+1
    5	Cleric	4	0.5	1	1
    6	Fighter 4	0.5	0.5	1	aug_sum
    7	Cleric	4	0.5	2	1
    8	Fighter 4	0.5	0.5	1		ws_ls	Str+1
    9	Cleric	4	0.5	1	1	imp_trn
    10	Cleric	4	0.5	1	1
    11	Cleric	4	0.5	1	1
    12	Cleric	4	0.5	1	1	grt_clv		Str+1
    13	Cleric	4	0.5	1	1
    14	Cleric	4	0.5	1	1
    15	Cleric	4	0.5	1	1	cft_aa
    16	Cleric	4	0.5	1	1			Str+1
    17	Fighter	4	0.5	0.5	1
    18	Fighter	4	0.5	0.5	1	cft_wi	ic_ls
    19	Fighter	4	0.5	0.5	1
    20	Fighter	4	0.5	0.5	1		gwf_ls	Str+1
    
     
  9. sirchet

    sirchet Force for Goodness Moderator Supporter

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    A high level cleric casting Holy Smite and eventually Holy Word or Blasphemy can make a world of difference when dealing with groups of strong baddies, or goodies even. ;)

    My cleric is usually not there to deal melee damage, but to heal folks and wipe out groups of bad guys with one word. I do like that he can put a slight smack down on a foolish baddie that crosses his zone when moving to hit someone.

    A high BAB can be obtained via a belt of strength +6 and not loosing any cleric levels.

    During a tough fight it's great to have a character that can heal someone for 160 or so HP's and take a licking.
     
  10. Tathum

    Tathum Member

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    My own Cleric / Fighters...

    When serving a tanking roll, generall don't get the cleave feats. I mainly have them up from to help make a bottle neck that keeps enemies from getting to my casters and Rogue. The problem is that it keeps me from having many useful other melee as they generally get the brunt of attacks as monsters see them as softer targets and choose them to attack.

    Still, with characters like that, they aren't there to deal damage, they are there to absorb it. My suggestion is to skip the power attack / cleave feats and focus on Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack (the last two feats are to help get around monsters to help Rogues get flanking attacks while keeping them relatively out of harm's way). Only augment summoning if you want the critters for Rogue flanking duty.

    I found that Earth and Protection Domains are best for the Cleric / Fighter tank build. Spells like Aid, Protection from Evil, and eventually Stoneskin are invaluable. And you can even have Bless, Divine Might, and Magic Weapon handy to help out with your attack rolls and damage to make up for any levels you skip on Fighter down the road.

    My own personal Dwarf Fighter Cleric has over 200 health at level 12 and never takes any damage thanks to his Dwarven Stone Plate, Tower Shield, and plethora of devensive spells and items. He makes sure to keep his 'loving' wife Fruella safe from harm as she sneaks around with a Meat Cleaver / Hand Axe combo and her nasty disposition.
     
  11. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Established Member

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    Thanks you guys for the different perspectives on a Cleric.

    A bit of background: I'm planning a 4 person party (max) with a wizard, cleric/fighter, rogue/fighter and a face-man. The face-man role I haven't figure out yet. I don't want another rogue, so maybe a bard.

    The cleric/fighter and rogue/fighter are supposed to be at the front line. The bard and wizard slinging spells from behind.

    @Tathum: with Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack it sounds like you're headed toward whirlwind ;) Do you think it make sense to skip the weapon focus and specialization feats for the ones you mention?

    @sirchet: you make a good point. It could be my play style that's hampering me. I had something like the 4 man party above and the cleric wasn't handling the front line so well.

    Some more questions:
    stat points: how big does wisdom need to be? I suppose 20 for 10th level spells, but is there a benefit to even higher?

    skill points: I read somewhere that spell craft doesn't do much without spot and listen to catch in coming spells. Maybe skill points should go to something more useful like use magical device or survival? Can anyone other than a bard do anything with "perform"?
     
  12. Tathum

    Tathum Member

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    I actually never took Whirlwind for him. When you only do an average of 6-8 damage a strike, Whirlwind doesn't help too much.

    I usually save that feat for my straight Fighters wielding a glaive with the great Cleave Feat right after they drink an Enlarge Person potion. I have a chaotic evil half-orc that can clear whole rooms in just a couple rounds with that combo. It's ... sick ... to say the least.

    And I do skip the weapon focus feat if I go straight Cleric at the start. As a tank up front, it's better to make sure he stays alive over being able to hit things. Leave that task to the rest of the party. And when you do start taking more fighter levels, you can always take those further down the road.

    With a wizard in the party, look into having fire resistance rings or pots, along with cloaks of resistance, and let him sit at the center of fireballs. Might be a good idea to have a few ways of putting globes of invulnerability on him too so he can withstand stronger blasts as your levels go up.

    Anyone know if Sanctuary protects from magical damage? Never tried that...

    EDIT: Oh, and a higher wisdom means a higher will save (which I never found useful in this game as not many wizards cast charm and dominate spells on you), better skill checks for Bluff and such (always useful, even later in the game when you need high Diplomacy for some quests), and more bonus spells for higher level spells (and an extra Heal or Summon Monster Seven is ALWAYS a good thing).

    For my own Dwarven Cleric / Tank, however, I went straight +CON.
     
  13. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Established Member

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    Hmm... I hadn't thought +Con versus +Str.

    I think I do want my Cleric to be able to hit something, but that does come at a cost.

    I may have to play test it just to convince myself ;)

    Hmm... stone skin would be nice...

    What is Dwarven stone plate? Where do I get some? :)

    I realize my Dwarf will have to have a decent dex and wear elvish chains (egad!) to make use of the tumble skill (or so I hear anyway).
     
  14. Tathum

    Tathum Member

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    Heavy armor means you have such a high armor penalty that tumble doesn't come in to play much. Mobility will serve you much better in that regard.

    If you really want added strength to hit, get a belt of giant strength. Just remember that he's a tank and your Wizard and archers should be the ones dealing damage safely behind him. Having a 200+ HP beast that takes little damage means not needing much in the way of heals.

    Of course, you can also make a group with three wizards, one Conjuration Specialist and two Evocation Specialists. I don't think I've purchased more than 5 healing spells from the Church of St. Cuthbert in that campaign.

    Chaotic Neutral party and all they do is put a few summoned monsters up front and then drop fireballs, Ice Storms, Cones of Cold to wipe out everything and then just Searing Ray / Magic Missile the stragglers. Good times...

    EDIT: Dwarven Stone Plate can be purchased in Nulb from Wong. High AC, little Dex Bonus, perfect for your midget rocks that you just furniture dolly into battle and let the baddies whack away at him...
     
  15. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Established Member

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    Hmm... Well I my have to reconsider what I think my cleric tank should be doing...

    Yes, having a damage sponge healer could be nice. Then my other rogue/fighter could WW around doing serious damage by flanking enemy...
     
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