North Korea is threatening nuclear war again

Afaik USN+ROKN did not drop the drills. See these maneuvers. They have already long commenced.

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38398304/ns/world_news-asiapacific/

*edit*
Whoops. My bad. I read the title wrong, lol. Although, I was ready to believe that the US would back down and try to be politically correct.

 

There's another US-facilitated exercise conducted in the Pacific Ocean right now called the RIMPAC 2010. It intends to hone readiness among US-aligned countries against any warlike situations provoked by opposing countries along the rim of the Pacific (hence the name of the exercise RIMPAC). You can see an ROKN KDX-III bearing the flag of Korea on the left side of the last picture, the largest and most heavily armed guided-missile destroyer to participate in the exercise that involves the participation of world's strongest naval arms.

http://bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/data/10044/upfile/201007/20100726170914.jpg
http://bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/data/10044/upfile/201007/20100726170905.jpg
http://bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/data/10044/upfile/201007/thumb2/20100726170957.jpg
http://bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/data/10044/upfile/201007/thumb2/20100726170959.jpg
http://bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/data/10044/upfile/201007/thumb2/20100726170955.jpg

Ok the images are too big. Incidentally I can't see the 'spoiler' feature on this forum...

 

Well, I think we can all relax about North Korea.

Look:

1. If North Korea attacks, its leaders lose their leadership, because they lose the war inevitably.
2. Smart leaders do not want to lose power, they want to keep it.
3. If any North Korean leader wants to attack, this means he is insane and/or stupid.
4. Insane and/or stupid leaders are usually replaced very soon.
5. So, we have smart North Korean leaders, who will not harm anyone.

Of course, if some South Korean leader thinks USA will support him and attacks, this is trouble, but, hopefully, the fabled and all-powerful DEMOCRACY will prevent this. :chick:

[EDIT] I actually do not understand, why US government pays so much attention to North Korea, this poor country is clearly harmless. US government would do better to concentrate on Saudi Arabia and other strange "islamic" states.

 

There ain't no democracy that exists anywhere in the world. They're only called democracies but are actually working republics. Here in the US, the rich and the government work together to hurt everyone else. I can't vouch for anyone else but I'd bet many dollars that it is the same everywhere.

 

My mistake, I should have written "DEMOCRACY" with those "" to signify that I am referring to the reality (as you are describing it), not to the fine concept.

 

3. We ARE talking about a third world country here. Bad leadership is pretty much the definition of a third world country.

4. WE had to remove Saddam Hussein. YOU had to remove Adolph Hitler. Joe Stalin was removed only by death.

5. They have already harmed people.

Remember in every war, at least one side has already made a terrible mistake. You can't always count on reasoned behavior on the part of our wonderful leaders.

Saudi Arabia IS especially wierd though.

 

Bad leadership in a third-world country can still be the best available and not necessarily deranged, mad or bloodthirsty.
And North Korean leaders were able to hold their power and stability in their country.
Of course, it is said that people have not enough food there. But there are other starving countries in the world.

Who says Saddam needed to be removed?
As far as I know (but I know only what official Russian TV tells me, so I may be totally wrong) much more people died since Iraq "liberation" than from all Saddam's "crimes" during his years in power. Actually, it will be... heh, I do not know how to say... We should find a graph showing casualties per year in Iraq from, say 1950 to 2010.

The case with Hitler is not like with Korea, because no one knew who will win the war. And he and his henchmen were the smartest, but mad. Actually, that was strange collective madness. Or so they say in movies.
And Stalin is believed to be one of the best leaders Russia had by most part of Russians.
(But I do not say that I agree with them. And I do not say that I disagree with them.)

"They have already harmed people."
Of course they did! Name someone who ruled a country and never harmed anyone.
It is the fate of a ruler unfortunately.

[EDIT 1] "Remember in every war, at least one side has already made a terrible mistake. You can't always count on reasoned behavior on the part of our wonderful leaders."
I totally agree with that. This part is, maybe, too soft-said.

[EDIT 2] Oh, yes, and I think modern Russia and Russians can not and should not claim any credit for removing Hitler. It were the great war heroes, who did that. If today's Russians are worthy of their legacy... This remains to be seen yet.

[EDIT 3] Search in google for "casualties in Iraq 1950 2010" actually gives some results. Try the seventh result.

[EDIT 4] Just right now I saw a program on TV about some "wikileaks" site publishing documents about Iraq, which show USA in a bad light. Strange that we were discussing the same.

 

Please understand that the big/main reason we don't wipe NK off the map is China.

If actual attacks/combat occur from either side (granted NK would be the most likely one to start it), it's unclear if China would come in and support NK.

If they did, as in back in the Korean War, the other side would be in serious trouble.

China threw 33 battalions (300,00 men) at the front lines, rupturing them and almost causing the Allies to lose big time. Yes the Allies counter attacked but the best both sides were able to get to was a draw. There was no victor.

Now, take China in 2010, with it's increased military and advancement. Imagine them throwing 500K or more at the South, all at once.

None of the countries on either side is really willing to make that mistake.

Yes, I'd like to shut NK up once and for all but I'm not willing to support such a gamble with our warfighters in a potential war with China.

 

In my humble opinion, a foreign county's need to remove a leader would be primarily based on what that leader is doing OUTSIDE his country. Internal issues should be left up to a nation's people.

Saddam Hussein attacked and invaded Iran, then Kuwait. The immediate justification for his removal was his failure to abide by the ceasefire agreement that he was a party to.

Adolph Hitler's record speaks for itself.

Joe Stalin's internal record includes the paranoid beheading of the Red Army (pretty much everyone from regimental command and up) in the face of a growing German menace, smashing major parts of the Soviet economy by 'reorganizing' them, repeatedly, for years, and killing 20 million of his own people. A record matched only by Mao in China.

Externally, of course, no foreign power would be capable of replacing Stalin without the help of the Russian people anyway.

Two thirds of the Wermacht was tied up on the Eastern Front unsuccessfully trying to keep the Russians out. It was a German veteran that said "If you kick the Russian infantry around long enough, they get REAL good." I suspect that is still true.

 

"Haha.. you fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is: Never get involved in a land war in Asia. but only slightly less well known is this: never go against a sicilian when death is on the line!! HA HA HA HA, AH HA HA_________________"

http://www.entertonement.com/clips/...dersWallace-Shawn-Vizzini-The-Princess-Bride-

 

Err, where did you get that 20 million figure?
The most Stalin-hating historians can not give more that 1 million, and that includes real criminals too. Of course, I may be out of modern historical science movement.
[EDIT] OK, this thread is not named "Stalin's apology"... So I have deleted my further thoughts on the matter.

Hmm, do you think "I" do not want all those trouble-maker states to become nice and civilized? But who knows, maybe they are right and we are wrong...

 

The death figure includes the people who died from incompetence as well as those who were executed. The U.S. government has killed people this way, too.

A positive thing that can be said about Stalin is the Soviets won WWII in spite of all the mistakes made before the war. Though this may be more to the credit of those surviving generals he let out of the prisons to successfully fight the war while still under sentence of death.

I have some idea that the Russian people have little patience with weak leadership, but this bothers me. I wonder what the trade offs are. Ultimately though, leaders can be judged by how well their counties do under their guidance.

I also understand the world's eye-rolling at the U.S. people's continuous outrage at the sorry behavior of the world's leadership, our own as well as others. I'm kind of proud of it.

 

Hey Sergio don't censure your thought's we are all adults here.
Here are a few facts to throw into the mix.

Before they were attacked by the Germans the Poland sent troops into Chechoslovakia,
and annexed part of the country is a short lived alliance with Hitler.

When it was Poland's turn Stalin allied himself with Hitler and invaded Poland and several other countries. Before Hitler turned on the Russians as well.

The Nazis are quite rightly condemmed for killing 5 to 6 million Jews.

That would have been small change had he won the war as he was planning to kill everyone in the Soviet Union.

I don't know that Stalin was responsible for 20 million deaths I thought that was the death toll among the Russians in WWII.

Ho Chi Min was an American Ally in WWII.

America supported Sadaam Hussain in his war with Iran.
It wasn't until he threatened the stability of oil supplies he was deemed to be a problem.

Generally nations and their leaders who commit acts of genicide are considered evil.
So if we propose a solution to North Korea of total annihilation we are ....

 

I really think most people overestimate the likelihood China would go to war to support North Korea again. China came to the North Korea's rescue in 1951 when the US-led UN coalition was threatening to totally overrun the North, but China today is not anything like it was 60 years ago. If China got into a shooting war with the US they would instantly destroy their own export-dependent economy, and they know it.

North Korea knows it, too. Why do you think they have been so hell-bent on developing a viable nuclear weapons program in the first place? They know their Chinese big brother isn't going to bail them out again and they also recognize they can't win a conventional war with the South anymore.