Charging Crossbowmen

This might be off topic, but do you think Black jay's script is screwing up the spiritual weapons? I am referring to the fact that mobs run around the weapon a bunch of times trying to find a spot to hit them from, but never attacking them.

 

Hi Gaear
Another report from the meadow. I actually played it twice in 5.6.0 just to double check my results. Is it possible that the Skeletons in the meadow are scripted differently depending on whether they have Light or Heavy Crossbows ?? The reason I ask (and this is the reason I played it twice) is that I noticed that Skeletons equiped with Heavy Crossbows are more likely to charge than Skeletons with Light Crossbows. In my two tests Skeletons with Heavy Crossbows would charge about 20 - 25% of the time, whereas Skeletons with Light Crossbows would only charge 10 - 15% of the time. It goes without saying that a Skeleton that charged would not use the 5 Foot step to avoid AOOs , but a Skeleton that didn't charge would.
The Royal Canadian

 

Hi Gaear
Just played the meadow for the third time to see if I might see something that would give me a clue as to why some Crossbow Skeletons charge and some don't. I even tried to keep notes of each fight (the order they popped up, what they did , etc... ), but I couldn't find anything that leads to conclude "if x is true then the crossbow skeletons will charge". I did notice something odd when I reviewed my notes though. It seems that the number of Skeletons is determined randomly, or at least if their is a set number of skeletons in the meadow, their weapons are determined randomly.
The Royal Canadian

 

There are 6 in the northern fight, 8 just south of that and 7 near the giant.

No bandit random encounters, yet.

 

Except that apparently behaviour has changed from Co8 version to version.

 

I've encountered dagger switching in the past when spawning crossbowmen via console, not sure what causes it. Haven't encountered it in the Moathouse, though. What party are you using? At what point does the dagger switching occur - when combat begins, at the start of the bowmen's first round, at a later point? Do they ALL switch to daggers?

There's a possibility that it might be solved using Livonya's combat scripting (which is still largely unimplemented in ToEE).

BTW, when you say 'added the two lines', I assume you mean replaced, right?

Edit: Ok, I've encountered dagger switching.
EVERYONE switched to daggers! (including the lieutenant)
It happened when I started a new game to test this stuff.
The strange thing is that I have a savegame where they DON'T switch to daggers (and I haven't touched the AI...).
It could be that the dagger switching is a side effect of using teleport to get to the Moathouse, or perhaps not doing something else that I'd normally do in an ordinary game. Perhaps having an NPC on board? Very bizarre. Moments like this make me want to throw all my weight behind helping DarkStrom and his engine recreation project.

I thought that was to accommodate the NPC dialogue flags?

If you'll notice, that script is also tailored to very specific NPCs (namely: Ettins, Elven Rangers, Grank's Bandits, and Half Orc Assassins), via 'if npc.name == X' statements. The guardsmen aren't in that list, so they shouldn't execute the item_wield_best_all command.

Also, weren't Black Jay's scripts brought to use a long time ago? Doesn't seem like it's the scripts specifically.

Here's the original default stategy:

Code:

Default    use potion            target closest            attack closest            target ranged            target closest            approach            attack            

Here's my analysis, based on my experience with the AI: (see ToEE's AI thread for some accounts of my experiments with AIs)

• Default- the strategy's name.
• use potion - standard break free enabler.
• target closest - targets closest.
• attack closest - no such command exists - thus the AI won't do anything yet at this point.
  • There's a possibility that it also breaks the rest that follows since it can't parse the command. In that case the AI may do all sorts of strange things.
• Assuming the AI isn't completely fucked due to the broken command:
• target ranged - targets a party member with a ranged weapon (assuming one exists).
• target closest - overrides the above, targetting the closest party member.
• Up till now, it's all targeting (remember, attack closest is "broken")

• approach - this is the first actual action besides use potion. Makes the AI approach its selected target, which is manifested in the charging...
• attack - attack... but it has to be close to its target, otherwise the approach action will execute first and prevent from attacking. So what the AI really needed was a working attack command before the approach command.

BTW, it seems that in 5.0.0 thru 5.0.5 (probably 5.0.6 too) the Default strategy was actually the Gorgon's strategy, since in effect the default strategy is obj_f_critter_strategy = 0 (references first line in strategy.tab).
That strategy was:

Code:

Gorgon (target dying)    target closest            cast area        'Petrifying Breath (INTERNAL)' domain_special 0    target threatened            attack threatened            target ranged            target closest            charge            attack            use potion            target closest            approach            

The petrifying breath would be ignored by most creatures since they don't have that ability, and instead they'd go:

• target threatend, attack threatened
• if none is threatened:
• target ranged, overriden by target closest, charge, attack

Not sure how ranged AI treats target threatened/attack threatened, will have to test.

The vanilla default AI was:

Code:

Default    attack threatened            target closest

This can lead to all kinds of bork as well

 

I think some of that was in vanilla. I'm pretty sure I remember dealing with crazy trip-happy bugbears before I found Co8.

 

Hi Gaear
More notes and a thought from your crazy canadian beta tester. I am now at the first level of the temple, after clearing the tower. Here are my observations:
1.) Tower archers / crossbowmen didn't "charge", but in all honesty I wasn't paying real good attention and I did use an entangle spell. I did notice a few archers using the 5' Step.
2.) All the skeletons with crossbows in the bone-filled hallway charged.
3.) The Earth Temple Guards just North of the Ogre Chief, did not charge, but also did NOT use the 5' step
4.) I had 1 Earth Temple Guard in the room just south of Romag charge. The other 4 or 5 didn't and also used the 5' step.

Here's my crazy thought: Has anyone taken a good look at the script for the Bugbear Archers and compared it to the script for the crossbowmen / skeletons ?? The reason I ask this, is that the Bugbear Archers never charge, always use the 5' Step until cornered, and then switch to a melee weapon. In fact the only thing bugbears goof on (and again I haven't been paying real good attention to this, so I don't know if it is the archers or the melee bugbears) is failing to take a 5' step before drinking a potion.
The Royal Canadian

 

A t() party, heh
Anyway, same here.
The other game where they all behaved fine was a completely normal game. Before altering the AI the crossbowmen would do the approach thing (without switching daggers), and after altering the strategy.tab they'd fire their x-bows.
I'll have to test further to see what causes this.
So far what I can think of:

• Lack of worldmap travel
• Not having areas[2] marked
• Having an NPC on board
• Not having had combat before

Yeah, I call it 'ToEE general FUBAR syndrome' .

No, I said that was the case in 5.0.0. In vanilla the first line in strategy.tab was indeed Default.

If there is no AI entry in protos.tab, it probably just sets the strategy variable to 0, and then the game references the first strategy.tab entry.

If a protos.tab entry should explicitly list Default as the strategy, then Default it will be (no matter what line number it is). Incidentally, no protos.tab entry actually does that, rather the AI field is simply left blank in most cases. In the latter case, the default strategy is the first line in strategy.tab, because the strategy variable equals 0.

Maybe, maybe not. You can look up AIs in the ToEEWB with the advanced search. The numbered ones are used by Livonya'a scripting, for sure (they are assigned to creatures via script).

Is having too many harmful? Well, try trimming everything except Default and Sniper and see if anything happens in that fight...

 

Hi Gaear
I wasn't suggesting that you assign the Bugbear AI to the Skeletons or Crossbow using guards, what I was thinking was more or less open the Skeleton AI and the Bugbear Archer AI in whatever editing program you use and compare them side be side to see if there is something missing (or added) to the Skeletons AI to make them act stupid.
The Royal Canadian

 

I've now encountered weapon switching with the Moathouse Courtyard bandits too. Seems the crossbowmen switch to their rusty swords, just as the guardsmen switched to daggers.

• This was with an NPC party member onboard.
• I didn't use teleports this time (got the location of the Moathouse the old fashioned way).
• Doesn't appear to be connected with my party's weapon loadouts. (tested all melee, and all ranged, same results)
• Have rested before.
• Have completed a quest.
• Clearing the cache doesn't solve it.

Also tried:

• Removing/switching some commands from the AI: took out sniper, took out clear target, added partial charge, added reload at the beginning, etc. No dice.
• Erasing the default AI completely, leaving it blank - still got weapon switching (the behavior is otherwise as expected)
• Changing the targeting from 'target closest' to 'target threatened' (as in vanilla) - didn't work.
• Looked up what AI the bugbear 'archers' use - it's just the sniper AI. Strangely, the ones in the back room will switch weapons, while the one where the scout is - doesn't, despite having the same AI.

These findings lead me to suspect that the weapon switching is not really related to the strategy.tab entry itself. Probably something more basic than that. Not sure what, and the apparent inconsistency is driving me crazy.

Other things to try:

• Guardsmen without san_start_combat scripts.
• Other desperate measures...?