Tales of the Wild Coast Discussion Thread

I think Sitra's right that Troika intended the game to be played out that way - like Sitra said, just look at the other games he listed and it's apparent this is how Troika liked to operate. However, I also believe this was one of the things Troika found was inconsistant and unworkable in a game that holds true to p'n'p D&D and the ToEE module. It's fine to develop a game from scratch that allows for a "random evil" playing style, but ToEE was not designed to play that way, and it seems to me that they acknowledged this by changing things from what that interview said as Ted pointed out.

I guess in the end, it boils down to who you want to be true to: Troika, or E.G.G. and company.

 

Well, I'm at work right now but will be getting off pretty soon, at 2:30 CST. I'd like to start playing this mod when I get home this afternoon. If there's anything I can do to help finish it in this one and a half hours, let me know and I'll do what I can. oke:

 

@ erkper:

What are you talking about? Examples please.


@ Gaear:

Isn't that what I'm doing?

Probably not - e.g. Fallout had occasional bounty hunters attack child killers in world map encounters.

Wasn't 'this measure' meant to effectively end the game?

Probably, but surely there are better alternatives?

How's that for consequence?

Anyway, killing everyone is one of those things you do just for kicks, like finishing the game with Ted, Ed and Edd. I doubt anyone'd miss the plot.

 

I am all for an evil end game. Its half the reason I made my high level mod so that you could take over Hommlet and eventually fight the forces of good.

An easy way to solve the 'No where to rest' problem is befriending Lareth and using the backdoor to the temple as your headquarters.

 

I recall it being possible to finish the game while killing almost everyone (I think there were maybe 1-2 plot critical NPCs you couldn't kill (prematurely) and one who had a sort of a safeguard that prevented you from killing him).

Furthermore, one of the quests from the evil path was to slaughter an entire village.

The 'evil' ending itself (spoiler - highlight to read)

Spoiler

pretty much involves annihilating every living thing in the whole world

.

 

In regards to the consequences of killing innocents byu an evil party. Think of the responses by local authorities as an escalation as has been noted already. Initially it would be local militia, then perhaps local militia with officers, things would then escalate from there is repeat killings occur.

What has not been noted though is the potential for the party to bribe officials. Needless to say Burne wouldn't be bought off in Hommlet but lower l;evel officials could be bought off. This option could be used by an evil party to gloss over their indescretions until their actions start to draw some real attention. Heck part of the price for the officials silence could be to do some services or tasks for him...like maybe finishing of Black Jays flock or poisoning the Hommlet water supply...

PLENTY of options for an evil party!!

 

The way I see it, there has to be consequences for one's actions.

Otherwise, it really shouldn't be labelled a Roleplaying Game. Instead, it should be an Action Adventure Game (like Jack and Dexter, etc).

So if you are evil and you go about indescriminately killing others (re: NPCs, innocents, etc), expect consequences thereof.

If known, nobody of sound mind is going to wish to consort with you - because you are likely to kill them at a whim. No shops.

One should probably get a title attached like "Homocidal Maniac" if it gets known that the Party is one of whimsical killers and murderers. This should result in attacks by militias (Law and Order here) and from shops not doing any business with said groups.

Even evil groups (like Lareth) are not going to be your "friend" just because your party is evil! Evil doesn't work like that! That is a lawful mindset that is being projected here. Evil does what it does to ANYONE that it can - it rarely considers allies anything other than as expendable resources if there is gain to come from it.

Lareth is really evil (I believe he is either Chaotic Evil or Neutral Evil) and is definitely not trustworthy in the least bit! Having a powerful adventuring party around will definitely not be something advantageous to Lareth for long - especially as it grows in power. He will eventually, sooner or later (and most likely sooner) devise plans to get rid of the interlopers (preferrably after they have gotten rid of certain "problems" that Lareth has in the surrounds, etc).

As for the other types of consequences for Homocidal Maniacs - one basically has two devices that one can do here - either the Balder's Gate solution (pop in some enforcers at random times) OR one can have the atrocities gain the attention of the Higher Planes.

The real problem I see with having enforcers that are powerful enough to defeat the party is that one then is left with the problem of explaining WHY they were not able to defeat Zuggy & Co., then.

In the case of using Outer Planars, however, one can explain that, and that is probably the route I would go - limited amount of interference on the Mortal Plane due to the atrocities that are taking place. Of course, the Outer Planes would be limited in what they could do directly about Zuggy & Co. due to the circumstances, so that makes sense, of a sort.

What might be more appropriate is to allow for an "intelligent" evil path - one where the evil party retains the semblence of an orderly and proper group, but secretly practices it's evil ways - killing those in secret (no witnesses), double-crossing, and basically being selfish and getting away with what it can without getting caught doing it.

This, IMHO, would be much more exciting than just chopping everything that moves into little pieces - how long and how far can you go with your evilness without getting found out?

 

Points taken. Now, admittedly my posting is flawed as I have not fully completed any of the "evil alignment" stories. However, the main reasoning behind my postings was more one of a logical perspective in relation to how DnD would "normally" played and a "realistic" (is that correct?) setting for said events in the Viscounty.

I don't mean to deny anyone (especially myself) the right to freely kill anyone you chose while playing an evil aligned party. I was simply throwing in my 2 cp as a productive, fun loving, and quite handsome, member of the forum. (no matter what you think! oke

Gods know that in PnP I've played evil characters who's atrocities are without measure or match. :evilgrin::yikes:

 

Subvert Evil? :yikes:

 

everybody keeps saying that the problem with escalatingly powerful squads going after homicidal parties is that a really powerful group would be able to stop Zugs and Iuz. I am going to debunk this
1- no one outside the party knows about the Temple being built up again. The party happens upon it by going to the moathouse to stop some simple bandits. Therefore, no super-group is aware enough to take action. This is the TOEE's biggest strong point. They do not want a repeat of the failed Battle of Emridy Meadows.

2 - there is already an uber-powerful group in Greyhawk called the Circle of Eight (not the modders here, the REAL Circle of Eight). The reason they don't stop guys like Iuz is that the Circle has taken a position of neutrality. However, in the event that they need to stop a super group of homicidal maniacs, they probably would in order to maintain the balance in the world.

3 - If you assume that other groups similar to the party exist (which I usually do), then there probably are some other really powerful groups out there that don't take on Iuz for a variety of reasons. Some believe in neutrality, some would think that Iuz is too tough, some have better things to do.

As an example, I ran a group through the TOEE about fifteen years ago. About 5 years ago, I used that group of characters (now extremely powerful) as sponsors for a new party exploring the new TOEE. That first party was about 15th level or so (not as powerful as the Circle of Eight), but they didn't get up and just go after Iuz (they did encounter him when they brought the TOEE down) because they preferred to work in secret. However, if a bunch of homicidal maniacs were killing people around Hommlet, they would probably get together to stop them (they have a soft spot for the area).

4 - The group that goes after the homicidal party does not have to be a group that works together normally, or ever has before. It could be a group of powerful individuals (the head of any mages guild in Verbobonc is probably close to 20th level) who band together (or are asked by the Viscount to band together) to stop the killers.

In summary, there have always been powerful people and groups in Greyhawk, just as there are in FR, and so far most of them seem to stand on the sidelines most of the time.

 

The supergroup argument is a bit problematic. Not that it doesn't make any sense, but taken to its logical extremes, it just seems like it pretty much invalidates playing the game:

As soon as you report on Temple activities to Otis, all-powerful supergroup X teleports in and kills all the bad guys. Game over.

Likewise, the evil ending where you join/dominate Zuggtmoy and ravage the countryside - totally unrealistic, some supergroup will just end you both in a heartbeat. What were you thinking?

In addition, when computer RPGs are concerned, implementation can't be left out of the equation. The 'supergroup treatment' would require proper exposition and background if it's not to be a tacked on deus ex machina. Not that it can't be done, but do we have the resources to pull it off?

As for the authorities contracting one such group in the first place: Is Hommlet really important enough to have its slaughter spur the authorities to mobilize a significant force against you? Bear in mind what Otis tells you in the game when you ask him for help against the Temple -

"Not now, @pcname@, and maybe not ever. There are still those people who feel the Temple should be left alone, rather than even attempt to destroy it. Why risk waking a giant, they say."

Sounds to me like the authorities are more likely to obey the principle of least action: They'd probably reason sending someone powerful after you could provoke the Temple, and that you're probably going to similarly wreak havoc on the Temple itself anyway, so they're better off leaving you alone, for the time being.

Another thing I'd like to add: expectations are everything. When you choose the CE party alignment, which kicks off with you arbitrarily slaughtering a bunch of peasants - you don't expect to later get a slap in the face for choosing what seems like a legitimate game path (not that it doesn't happen in games anyway, but ideally it shouldn't). Especially not in a game that is as free-form as ToEE.

Lastly, I will concede this - I seem to be in the minority regarding this issue (to say the least). I guess I'll just have to live with it if it's modded in, seeing as how everyone else is in favor (though you can bet I'll yank it out ASAP in my version ).

 

I read this and got to remembering a very great module where the intro of said module begins with a peon undead, a wight I believe, who found Vecna's hand and killed the Circle Of Eight all at once, in less than 1 combat round when they tried to think they were bad, lol. Memories....