Idea: Fix Fragarach/Scather

So, I decided to procure a copy of the original ToEE module so I could look up my own stuff. One of the first things I looked into was Fragarach, because I'd heard that the way it works in 1st edition has significant differences from how it works in this game.

And this is true. Here's how it works in the original:

1. AD&D has some 'concurrency' in turns. I'm not familiar enough with the exact details, but I think you announce stuff before knowing exactly when it will happen, and things like weapon speeds determine the order that attacks occur in the relevant step (I think you also reroll initiative every round after this step, so you really don't know when anything will happen). The important part is that Answerers always go last.
   
2. The number of 'auto hits' you can do depends on how many hits you've actually received that round. I think you're still limited by how many attacks you can normally do. But also if no one attacks you, you don't get any auto-hits.
   
3. The rest of the abilities are also beefed up, but not quite as badly

In this game, my understanding is:

1. The 'answering' is an unlimited number of automatic, immediate counter attacks. Technically this occurs 'after' the attack that triggered it, but this is way better than original #1
2. If you're the right alignment, you just always hit, regardless of what's happened to you

So, here's my proposal for a 'fixed' implementation, which I think is possible in Temple+:

1. These swords ensure your initiative is always 0 or -10 or something, so you're the last person to act in a round. No AoO counter attacks.
   
2. Being hit adds 'auto-hit' charges which are then expended by the attacks you make on your turn. Chaotic Neutral people can get 1 charge/round, Chaotic Good unlimited charges. The charges expire at the end of the round.
   
3. The rest of the abilities could be toned down if desired.

Whether or not getting hit by a balor's fire aura when you attack them gives you charges is TBD (I don't know how easy it is to detect that; that's the original bug, right?). The point is, this makes the weapon into a potentially interesting tradeoff, rather than just a death machine. Also it can't put the game into an infinite loop.

So, is there interest in this kind of mod?

As a side note, Scather is only supposed to be half as good as Fragarach. Fragarach is +4 if you're Chaotic Good (although I've heard that's actually a typo, and should be Lawful Good). Scather is only +2 (so the one you can actually get without likely violating your good alignment is even less overpowered).

These swords also don't blast lawful/neutral people trying to equip them, which is kind of disappointing. Maybe I can implement that, too.

 

Oh, also, here's another option for how the swords could work:

The wording in the original module actually talks about, "as many opponents", being able to be auto-hit. So maybe it should be that attacking/hitting the wielder of Scather/Fragarach puts a debuff on you that allows you to be auto-hit by Scather/Fragarach until the end of the round. CN wielders' one is whichever debuffed enemy they hit first.

The exact wording seems to leave open the possibility of auto-hitting people who didn't actually attack you, but I think maybe it shouldn't work that way. And this is English prose, not unambiguous formal logic.

Edit: Here's a more complicated, alternate idea about how 'answering' could work. I'm not sure how feasible it is, though. Your initiative stays as normal, but in order to take advantage of the auto-hitting, you need to delay your turn until the end of the round. After you take that delayed turn, your position in the initiative order is reset to normal. That way you only have to sacrifice initiative if you want to take advantage of the to-hit capabilities, and not if you want to heal your friends or something.

 

To my present understanding, negative levels on opposite-aligned creatures are real. (I tested this with a Holy Weapon on Oohlgrist. He died due to having too class levels.)

The revised 'answering' part seems like Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit.

Having played with these swords, their biggest downside is reach. My standard weapons are polearms which have double the reach and potentially far more damage! (+1 Holy Keen ... polearms can do LOTS of damage!) Another major downside of your proposal is that Iuz and St. Cuthbert - especially in the endgame quest Demons & Demigods - seem specifically put there to be killed with Answerings. (Even fully buffed with the Swords of Answering, beating 3x Iuz was still a difficult fight!)

 

I know they give you a negative level. The book says lawful and neutral people get blasted with damage and stunned if they try to wield it. Basically they're unable to even equip it. I like that idea.

That the swords let you win a fight against multiple god avatars is just an argument for fixing them.

 

There was an old forum thread discussing these swords:
https://co8.org/community/threads/the-guys-on-prince-thrommel-fragarach.4890/

I think they just gave up on trying to sort something out, considering that it doesn't really fit in well. Consider this other reddit post (https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/bmaomx/fragarach_final_word_the_original_sword_of/) showing Fragarach as how he imagined it for 5e. The original module was a 1st edition AD&D thing. For an interesting read on this forum, here is another thread about how more difficult the module was under those rules (best explained by Corwyn's post near the bottom of the first page):
https://co8.org/community/threads/differences-between-the-module-troikas-computer-game.9046/

TLDR...I don't think there really is a suitable fix, without redefining the sword(s) or how it is obtained.

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They are supposed to be challenging fights. However that fight is not part of the original module design where the swords originate.

I've personally never used the answering swords in the gods fights. I always go in completely unbuffed, as that is the intention of that thing (tricked into dinner and sex, then surprised at the last moment...etc.).

The module throws a lot of holy weapons at you. Frostbrand works against both gods. Both gods have no DR bypass. Verbonc has most booster items you could want.

There are lots of tactics that can wear the gods down. The tricky part is surviving the first couple of rounds, in order to get some buffs going. I personally don't use the reach weapons (I have tried them), as it takes away some of the challenge when enlarged. But you can't just facetank them; you need to pull them into AoO, then single attack and move away - so they only get a single attack on you! A full volley from Cuthbert or Luz is hard to survive.

You do need every possible +AB trick such as wands of true strike used every other round, helpful umd for other spells, etc.

Also - and it's been a long while and I can't remember - but with reach weapons + enlarge + Righteous Might it may be possible to consistently 5' step them.

This is the only fight in ToEE where Spring Attack can actually be of great value. That said, I rarely take it except when I've got more feats than I know what to do with or have most pre-req for some class like Duelist.

And then there is crafting:
I try to not be too cheesy anymore, but I can say that crafted bows/slings with Seeking + Wounding can be really cheesy. Even though a 20 may be necessary to hit (it might take 20 shots to get a hit) eventually both Cuthbert and Luz will have no constitution left and subsequently die to not that many melee hits. Throw down some Solid Fog and Cuthbert can barely move (Luz has freedom of movement). Also fyi, Solid Fog considers reach weapons "ranged" for purposes of concealment iirc - which means Solid Fog is bad for reach weapons even with Blind Fight.

 

It sounds like the biggest deviation is that it auto hits on your regular attacks rather than just the answers. That should be easy to fix I think.
(The infinite loop issue I already fixed btw)
The initiative wrangling sounds less important to me, and would be more controversial for sure.

 

Can reach weapons be fixed to behave as per 3.5? Such that anything adjacent would be "immune" to attack? However, that could make the game more of an exercise in micro-management.

Reach Weapons
Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

 

Well, 10 years ago rewriting the abilities would involve hex editing or something I imagine. I'm pretty confident I can create swords with the abilities in the first post, and the first part of the second. What I'm saying is I can define the swords to behave more similarly to the original module, and people who want to have something more reasonable to play with could use something that somehow switched the broken swords with mine.

I guess the initiative thing is unnecessary if the answering aspect is just made to reset at the end of the wielder's turn. That is equivalent to imagining that the rounds all end with the wielder's turn.

They actually seem to be a mess even leaving aside the fancy features. The damage procedure is adding a +8 bonus using some pretty dubious logic, which makes a chaotic good wielder do +8 damage on all hits to any target that isn't evil.

For #3 in my first post, Fragarach in the original module is:

• +4 when wielded by a chaotic good character
• That bonus damage increases to +8 on criticals only against evil creatures (which leads me to believe enhancement damage doesn't double on crits in 1st edition)
• That's it
• Scather is +2 instead of +4

In this game they're both:

• holy (+2d6)
  
• anarchic (less useful +2d6)
  
• +4 when wielded by anyone non-evil
• +4 additional damage on normal hits from CG attackers to non-evil opponents

Of course, just copying the enhancement stats of the original Scather wouldn't be impressive at all in 3.5.

 

I think fixing reach is more complicated than just making attacks not hit at certain distances. You should probably not be able to attack in the first place in those situations, so that there's an opportunity to see that, and reposition yourself. People with reach weapons should probably also not threaten those areas (so, they don't contribute to flanking people right next to them, for instance). And the AI needs to know how to reposition itself to put its desired target back into an area it can actually hit them from.

 

Spoiler: Iuz Stats

Iuz (780 HP) SR[35]
Chaotic Evil male human level 20 cleric / level 10 rogue (outsider, extraplanar)
Strength: 42
Dexterity: 24
Constitution: 26
Intelligence: 24
Wisdom: 31
Charisma: 24
Cleric Domains: Evil, Destruction
Special Quality: Damage Reduction (15/-)
Special Quality: Spell Resistance [35]
Special Quality: Immunity (Poison/Electricity/Acid/Cold/Confusion)
Special Quality: Untripable
Special Attack: Smiting
Special Quality: Energy Resistance (Fire: 10)
Special Quality: Stable
Special Quality: Deflection Bonus: 10
Special Quality: ability same as a 'Ring of freedom of movement'
Challenge Rating: 50
Save vs. Reflexes: 15 (this is probably added to his Dexterity Modifer to give his actual Reflex Save)
Save vs. Fortitude: 15 (this is probably added to his Constitution Modifer to give his actual Fortitude Save)
Save vs. Willpower: 15 (this is probably added to his Wisdom Modifer to give his actual Willpower Save)
Attack: +62/+57/+52/+47/+56/+48/+51/+43/+46 (+20 Base Atack, +15 Class, +7 Class, +16 Strength Modifier, +1 Feat: Weapon Focus (Greatsword), +3 Enhancement: Iuz's Greatsword) (-6 Dual Wield) (-10 Off Hand)
Damage: weapon: Iuz's Greatsword (Slashing) 2d6+27 (+24 Strength bonus, +3 (Enhancement: Iuz's Greatsword)) +2d6 (against Lawful targets only) +2d6 (against Good targets only)
AC: 43 (44) (+16 Natural Armor, +7 Dexterity modifier, +10 Deflection bonus) (+1 Feat: Dodge)
Hit Dice: 50
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Crippling Strike, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Spring Attack, Improved Critical (Greatsword), Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Mobility, Dodge
Skill ranks: Bluff: 53, Concentration: 53, Hide: 53, Move Silently: 53, Sense Motive: 53, Tumble: 53, Spot: 53, Listen: 53, Search: 53, Spellcraft: 53
Spells: Animate Dead

Spoiler: St. Cuthbert Stats

St. Cuthbert
Lawful Neutral male human level 20 cleric / level 20 fighter (outsider, extraplanar)
Strength: 38
Dexterity: 24
Constitution: 27
Intelligence: 24
Wisdom: 45
Charisma: 29
Hit Points: 520 (this is added to his (Constitution Modifier X character level = 8 X 40 = 320) to give his actual Hit Points which are 840)
Cleric Domains: Destruction, Law
Special Quality: Damage Reduction (25/-)
Special Quality: Spell Resistance [67]
Special Quality: Energy Resistance (Fire: 20)
Special Quality: Immunity (Confusion/Electricity/Poison/Acid/Cold)
Special Attack: +2d6 Holy damage
Special Attack: +2d6 Lawful damage
Special Attack: Smiting
Special Quality: Untripable
Special Quality: Deflection Bonus: 24
Challenge Rating: 60
Save vs. Reflexes: 19 (this is probably added to his Dexterity Modifer to give his actual Reflex Save)
Save vs. Fortitude: 19 (this is probably added to his Constitution Modifer and Great Fortitude feat bonus (which is +2) to give his actual Fortitude Save)
Save vs. Willpower: 19 (this is probably added to his Wisdom Modifer and Iron Will feat bonus (which is +2) to give his actual Willpower Save)
AC: 71
Hit Dice: 60
Feats: Weapon Specialization (Heavy Mace), Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Critical (Heavy Mace), Iron Will, Weapon Focus (Heavy Mace)
Skill ranks: Concentration: 41, Diplomacy: 42, Listen: 92, Search: 84, Sense Motive: 164, Spellcraft: 102, Spot: 86, Use Magic Device: 72, Survival: 82

This is why I equip the artifact swords for the god fight. (Stats copied from the Co8 Game Guide.)

 

Luckily they are essentially mindless autoattack robots. And it is just a numbers check.

Can you imagine if either put the cleric/domain levels to work? Spells such as unholy word, righteous might, heal, resurrect other avatars, summon monster IX, etc.to use or used skills like Spring attack?

For example Iuz has AC 44 with DR of 15. That's not really that hard to hit. Cuthbert is quite a bit harder with AC 71 and 25DR; for Cuthbert crits are very rare and only anarchic weapons help much. (Sword of chaos is found in a later area - if not crafting)

In Iuz case:

• 20 lvl fighter with no feats + wand of true strike = 40AB +d20. With a few other boosts, that's even a decent chance to crit. Especially with extra feats to help the confirmation. Even without true strike you can get +4AB feats, +AB from strength+AB from enhancement, flanking feats, etc. etc. for an equivalent amount.
  
• Damage with holy/axiomatic weapons for extra 2-4d6, flaming, or even just simple spell boosts from prayer/bard/strength/etc can overcome the damage reduction regularly, for regular amounts of damage.

Finally, the game is over at the point of that fight...so it really doesn't matter.
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However, the biggest cheese of Fragrach/Scather is how it allows a low-level party to kill Iuz during the 4th level ToEE battle for insane amounts of xp.

 

Yeah, I don't care about one optional uber fight added at the end of the game. The swords weren't just added as something accessible to 20th level characters about to do that fight.

Rather, they were added as part of the original module, accessible to, like, 6-7th level characters (probably lower if you metagame), and are massive overkill for that. I'm interested in ideas about dialing them back, so that they can fit into more games for people who would currently avoid them as too easy.

That's how I feel about many spells I've worked on, too. I think Bigby's Tripping Hand is not a great spell (it takes 3 checks to have an effect), but it's interesting for Evocation to have offensive options besides damage. The weakness ensures that other schools are better for such applications, though, which helps keep school specialization interesting. I would never implement the infamous Orb spells, for instance, because they just make Conjuration better than Evocation at the thing that Evocation is supposed to be good at.

If your desire is to never dial anything back, then it's not relevant to my interests in this thread. You can just not install/enable the changes.

 

It's a good fit for the stricter rules option.

The donut reach as well, but as mentioned that takes some further work. To make things easier, it could be restricted to affect party members only as a first step, since 99% of AIs don't use reach weapons.

Also, Iuz/ Cuthbert need an AI buff
I thought the engine allowed them to 5' + full attack now? Or does the spring attack tactic allow you to bypass that?

 

As an aside, I've enabled "prefer 5' step and full attack" and my party still hasn't reliably done that when clicking on a foe!