Prestige Classes: Convince Me

Hello,

I'm an old school AD&D guy, and I've never played with any of the Prestige Classes. I just did a fresh install of Co8 8.1.0NC with Sitra Achara's Temple+.

I've read through the d20 info on the Eldritch Knight, Mystic Theurge, and Dwarven Defender. The Dwarven Defender seems pretty boss, but I don't see the allure of the Eldritch Knight or Mystic Theurge. Besides a slightly better hit die for the knight, it seems a dual class character has most of the same benefits.

I've started playing with a party of seven, many of whom would be easy fits for the Prestige Classes. Since this is such a knowledgeable community , I was hoping you could "sell" me on the Prestige Classes. Give me some gameplay examples where being a Prestige Class character was a definitive advantage.

Thanks...

 

Mystic Theurge looks to me like what someone would come up with if they were asked how to gimp you with multiclassing horribly.

 

The advantage isn't really against single-class PCs, especially against full casters. They are an attempt (albeit by game designers who did a pretty bad job of balancing the base classes) to permit certain combinations to be just a bit better than multiclassed characters. If you want a classic 'fighter-mage' for example, your FTRx/WIZx is going to be significantly worse at fighting than a FTR2x and at spellcasting than a WIZ2x all the way up. An Eldritch Knight loses less BAB, fewer HP and fewer spell levels than the straight multiclass. Similarly, Mystic Theurges lose fewer levels of both divine and arcane magic than a split multiclass would- despite what Winston S says, it gimps you far less to go WIZ3/CLR3/MT10 (at which point you have 7th level spells of both types) than WIZ8//CLR8 (5th level spells). Of course neither is as good as WIz16 or CLR16, and in a game where you play a party not a single PC, from a raw power perspective single class casters are the obvious choice (go for separate Wiz and Clr characters, since there's no need to try to combine both roles in 1; if you must try to cast spells and swing a sword take a single level of wizard and get your mate to give you some wands). At this stage in the game's evolution, though, they are welcome chance to do something differently.

 

I see your point. I'm still only in favor of prestige classes that specialize on something of their own, like Dragon Disciple or Pyrokineticist, those seem to me like they have a chance to shine more, because the multiclass style prestige classes are something generally overlooked for single classes.

 

Thank you for the explanation, Nightcanon.

 

I agree that most aren't very optimal to say the least, but it's fun trying new things, simular to how you play an all Bard party and roll with it.
That said I'm very much open to suggestions for Improved Prestige Classes as a house rule option. E.g. I've heard MT gets house ruled sometimes to allow earlier entry (wiz2/clr2 instead of wiz3/clr3).

 

Oh, I agree. Part of the problem is that for pure power, you can't really beat a Wiz, Clr or Druid with the D&D rules as they evolved to 3.5 (there's a large part of me that feels instinctively that it ain't really D&D unless wizards get nth level spells at level 2n+1, while fighters get +1 to hit each level, despite that being the basis of the power disparity between casters and 'mundanes'). A lot of the prestige classes work better as concepts than as game mechanicsand there have been better attempts later (I prefer the Swashbuckler/Rogue with dashing outlaw feat as a model for minimally-armoured fighter, for example, and while things like Arcane Archer are neat concepts, some of the special abilities could have been given to the Ranger for free without unbalancing the game unduly).

 

I think there is quite a lot of generalisation about prestige classes going on here; surely there must still be evidence remaining on the 'net from the 'glorious days' of severe 3.5 power-gaming abuse involving Shadowcraft Mages, Earth Magic and Sublime Chords?

 

The Eldritch Knight allows you to get 4 attacks based on BAB alone and 9th level spells simultaneously. You can't do that with normal multi-classing alone. Similarly, Mystic Theurge allows a single character to have 9th level arcane or divine spells and 7th level of the other kind at the same time.

 

Things I'd love to see implemented: sneak attack fighter from Unearthed Arcana (lose fighter bonus feats, gain sneak attack dice- could be as easy as adding sneak attack +1d6 as a stackable feat), and/or the Swashbuckler class + daring outlaw feat (full BAB, if you have the requisite no.of rogue levels, Swashbuckler levels stack with Rog levels for purpose of sneak attack).

 

I ask here something in order not to open another topic on same subject.I understood that eldricht knight and mystic theurge are like a warr/wiz and cleric/wiz but with better bab,hp and spells lev right?Or they have particolar feats for them only?About assassin:it's like a rogue with poison resistance or his class feats are implemented?What's the difference between duelist and finesse rogue?

 

If you want to know exactly what those classes do, you could just check the SRD. The Temple + team has effectively implemented many of the prestige classes as described there with only a few spells or abilities missing. But yes, the Eldritch Knight and Mystic Theurge make multi-class caster builds far more viable due to having better BAB and/or spell progression than a regular fighter/wizard or cleric/wizard multiclass. Neither get any class abilities, which make them a little dull, although the EK gets a bonus feat from the fighter list at level 1 but that's it.

I haven't tried the Assassin yet, but from what I can see from the code, it looks fully implemented. The other guys are free to correct me if I'm wrong. As for the duelist, he's kind of a rogue but not exactly. It's essentially Wizards of the Coast's take on the "swashbuckler" fighter and thief kit from AD&D 2nd edition (that is before they added an actual swashbuckler into D&D 3rd edition). Basically he's an unarmoured rogue-fighter who's specialised with a one-handed sword fighting style and is very agile. I'm not sure what you mean by "finesse" rogue though.

 

Hi,thanks for replying! I checked srd 20 but I thought it seems unlikely that all prestige classes features were implemented in temple + because of toee engine and his nature.By finesse,I mean a dex 2 weapon fighting rogue with light weapons like rapier,shortword,dagger,ect.

 

So far of all the prestige classes released that I've played with, the only class ability missing is "ranged legerdemain" from the Arcane Trickster. There are a few spells missing but that's it. As I said, I haven't played the assassin yet, but it looks fine. I don't know how many of the other prestige classes are being added and/or whether it's even possible to implement them in the engine. The dragon disciple e.t.c, have entries, but they may just be placeholders. If you want to know more you'd have to ask the Temple+ guys.

As for the duelist vs. your "finesse" rogue, they are quite different. The duelist gains AC bonuses for being unarmoured, and has special abilities which rely on him utilising a single light one-handed weapon (no two-weapon style). Due to his high HP and BAB, a duelist is more similar to a fighter than a rogue mechanically. While he has a high number of skill points, he doesn't get any of the "thief"-type class skills such as open lock or disable device, and he doesn't actually need any rogue levels to enter (unlike the assassin).