Hi. I love the new content for TOEE. And I completely understand why, for game-purposes, most of that new content is restricted until after Zuggy is defeated. But I would really like to see a mod that provides some story account for why we can't go to Verbobonc until that happens. I mean, Verbobonc is this huge nearby city that everyone knows the location of. So, when my characters want to buy magical gear for temple raids, why wouldn't they be able to just go there? Eventually I might learn to mod to do this myself, but in the meantime, I would really like to see a mod implement some story for why we can't go to Verbobonc. The most straightforward idea I've had is that the White Dragon plaguing the trade routes will also attack any party trying to travel to Verbobonc. So maybe have an NPC tell the PCs from the very beginning of the game that some dread power is preventing passage to Verbobonc. Then maybe whenever you try to take the Passage to Verbobonc it triggers an automatic 'random encounter' with the White Dragon (the same one from the Verbobonc cave exit). That would be consistent with the current White Dragon story but it might be better to have something more elaborate that is actually tied to Zuggy, so that when she dies it suddenly becomes possible to go to Verbobonc. Is this something that anyone else has considered or am I the only one that finds it strange that the PCs can't go to Verbobonc until Zuggy is dead?
I really don't know much about that, but I can assume only that the reason maybe that, every map in Homlet and the TOEE campaign is repainted and traversing back and forth is not feasible? I think maybe you should cheat your way there it would be easier console cheat codes ================== game.areas[x] = 1 x is map number 0-13? that would mark every place on your map for fast travel change all game.areas[x] = 1 give yourself the golden skull give 12018 give yourself level 10 maybe Instant Heart of wood level 10! game.leader.obj_set_int(obj_f_critter_experience, 45000) might take you 30 min to level all your characters to level 10 but hey its free XP! give yourself money give 7003 99999999 then either go kill zugtmoy, or just go to burne and rufus castle show em the SKULL GIVE him the skull Banish Zuggy Pass time for like 3 days I think, then the TOEE campaign will end
I'm not sure you understood my issue. Yes, I can use the console to enable Verbobonc (and sometimes I do that because it defies logic that the characters wouldn't be able to go there). game.areas[14] = 1 What I am hoping for is that someone out there has recognized that from a story perspective it makes no sense that the characters couldn't go to Verbobonc and have therefore built a mod that provides a story reason for that (such as a white dragon blocking the pass - or maybe to tie it to Zuggy, maybe she has summoned a pack of vrock to block the pass; and maybe those Vrock vanish when she dies).
Oh yea I guess I missed that as the theme. I would agree with you there how about a colosol green dragon? or is your heart set on it being a white dragon?
Well, there are several reasons why Verbobonc is not opened until after Zug: Firstly, it's a CRPG. This means the game must take somewhat of a railroad approach to opening each state of the campaign, even though things are left as free and open as possible. Second, I think the Co8 team wanted to preserve the flow and spirit of the original game, by only adding small side adventures and enhancing the existing ones. I think opening Verbobonc during the Temple part of the game would trod too much on the original game, and also spoil the "On to Bigger and Greater Adventures!" part of the chain. Lastly, it would be semi-nightmare to reprogram all the Verbobonc dialogs, adventure, and turn off NPC's that wouldn't be there until after the first stage if the game is over.
I get all that. Which is why I would like there to be something physically preventing passage to Verbobonc (like a dragon or demon host) so that there is a story reason why Verbobonc can't be accessed (in addition to all of the game reasons you mentioned).
In an earlier version of the Modpack you could talk to the smith and gain access to Verbobonc, but there was an overwhelming consensus to move everything to after the temple.
You're looking for a reason why you can't physically go there, but the real story reason is that you you don't want or need to go there. You've become immersed in an epic adventure to save the world around the Hommlet/Nulb/Temple area, and have no reason or interest to travel to Verbobonc except maybe to buff up at the local shopping mall. That is the main point of my response, and the following is just blabbering... Someone mentioned in another thread somewhere that after discovering the Temple, it would make a lot more sense to go to Verbo and gather up all the 15th level dudes and wipe it out in a evening. What's the story reason for not doing that? If you really need a reason why you physically can't go there, I think it would make sense to just be an RPG'er and make up your own like you did, or any of these: - My father won't let us return to my home city (Verbo) until I've accomplished something of consequence to prove my worth. - We were traveling through (and are from) the other side of the world and haven't got that far yet, and don't really even know what it's all about. - The influential Jaroo has spoken so much about the evil and decadence of the big city that you have no interest to go there. - Zugtmoy and/or Iuz have affected you mental and spiritual state to the point that you are feeling compelled to finish the quest alone. They are toying with you and expect you to fail, but are letting you thru to test their minions strength.
But isn't that a HUGE reason to want to go there? Frankly, if the world is on the line, it's irresponsibly reckless to NOT go to Verbobonc to buff up. I don't find that especially compelling. Why would 15th-level dudes even deign to speak to you much less go where you tell them to go? In a D&D world 15th-level heroes would constantly be bombarded with requests for help. Very few of those requests would be granted. It would be the equivalent of people in our world asking Obama to come to their birthday parties. It might happen occasionally, but it's absurd to think that YOUR attempt to get him to come to your party would actually succeed. I'm playing this game so that I don't have to make stuff up. If imagination was all I wanted, then I could just visualize a temple raid while closing my eyes on the couch. So why can't you just sneak into town to buy some gear that will let you easily wipe the floor with the demonlord threatening your world? Why? Because daddy would be disappointed if he found out? Really? And you wouldn't ask someone where the nearest city was so that you could gear up for this temple raid? You don't need to have an interest in sightseeing. You just need to pop in, buy some gear, and pop out. And is every character in your party such a tool that you'd rather risk demonic armageddon rather than defy little Jaroo - who you just met? That's probably even more sad than being afraid of what daddy will think. Again, you can handle it alone. But why not pop into town to grab some belts of giant strength, gloves of dexterity, and black elven chain mail?
What about reasons not to go to Nulb and the Temple? Or just go find all the other locations on the worldmap by exploring? I suppose we could add some explanation somewhere but it would seem a bit inadequate or too little too late. Such as "Jaroo says you are unallowed to go to Verbobonc!" "We're going anyway."
Hmm, Iuz does have an interest in what's happening in the temple, but as his counterpart puts it to him, "It is not our place to meddle in mortal affairs", (love that line from ST Cuthbeard) are you aware that just a few hundred leagues northeast of Verbobonc is a place called "The Empire of Iuz"? The temple is more about settling a reoccurring threat that wasn't handled as well as they thought in the first place. The Co8, (no, not Gaear, Ted, Sitra and others) had sealed a demoness in the bowels of the temple and thought that was sufficient to protect the nearbye realm from the evil within. Let's not forget that your party did not set out to destroy the temple and save the day, but merely stumbled upon a robbery, was called before the Elven council, stopped a caravan heist, or whatever else brought your party to the wee town of Homlett. I'm almost certain saving the realm wasn't mentioned. Just food for thought.
I see from your responses that your general concern is not really thematic, but inability to "gear up" for your heroic attack on the Temple. I get it, i really understand this... "We're trying to save the world, we should be able to turn as much gold as we have into the right equipment to maximize our strength and further our endeavors. A quick trip to a nearby Verobonc where they sell such things could be the difference between saving thousands of souls from the destruction of a Demoness, an evil god, and her minions." But there's a real-world sensibility and logic to this sort of money management where all excess gold can be instantly turned into maximizing equipment at a shop that the original game of "entering a small village and finding adventure" didn't intend. Going back before the Co8 mods, you'll notice that they very carefully monitored and limited the magic items and special equipment that was available for sale, most had to be found or crafted. There were some scrolls and a handful of masterwork items originally in Hommlet, plus a very expensive Holy Mace from Calmert. Then in Nulb, Otis added some masterwork items, and Skole and Lodriss had some low level stuff for sale like +1 rings, +2 gloves of dex, +2 dagger, etc. But it was mostly stuff that wasn't game changing. It depends on the campaign, but generally the game of D&D (including both the TOEE module and the TOEE computer game) is a game where you build up magic items by killing bad guys and looting (and later in 3.5 rules by expending precious xp's crafting). You can do all that w/o going to Verbobonc, and that's what they want you to do. That's the way the original computer game was designed (not my opinion). "Kill, find treasure, kill, find treasure, maybe craft, sneak and steal, find more treasure, maybe craft more". NOT "kill, find treasure, liquidate everything into gold, buy +6 Belts of Giant Strength for everyone". I think the Verbobonc shopping plaza is a cool idea, and a real orgasm the first time you go there, but having all the items for sale to instantly turn your gold into any item you want is kind of a fun killer, so I generally avoid it save for a few scrolls I may want for my Wizard. PS: You didn't need to quote and respond with logical refute to all my role-playing suggestions for explaining the reason for not going to Verbobonc. I wasn't trying to make any kind of absolute sense out of the ideas, they were just fun stories to play with during the game to explain the situation. But I jusy wanted to point out that Terjon (20th level), Calmert (10th level), Jaroo (16th level) all talk to you whenever you want before you even have an XP.
Verbobonc was moved to the end for balance reasons, I think it's that simple. This would have basically every player (including myself) wanting to knock over the White Dragon as low a level as possible, for s&g and bragging rights. And XP. And treasure. Ie, it would have the opposite effect. Cf the various "how to kill Iuz and Cuthbert before they leave" threads. A story reason is a good idea, but it only needs to be a reminder of the '4 days to kill Zuggy' thing with the Skull. How long does it take to get to Verbobonc anyway? More than 2 days each way, I'd say Prior to taking on Zuggy, I don't think it's an issue thematically (imho). You've left home to adventure around the Hommlet area - that's what the early game is. You move on to Verbobonc when your adventure is concluded.
Maybe. But by the time you can beat the white dragon you can probably beat Zuggy, so it would still prevent going to Verbobonc "too early" - thus preserving the game as intended (as eloquently pointed out by marc). I completely agree that this problem could be solved if there was a really short time period available to defeat Zuggy. But there (usually) isn't. It seems unlikely that a party would stumble upon the skull and take it to Burne prior to having enough loot for purchasing Verbobonc goodies. So the game is normally set up to where your characters have no reason to think they are in a rush to do anything. I usually do implement a time limit for killing Mathel (day #d6) and clearing the moathouse bandits (day #2d6) and killing Zuggy (day #3d6), but the fact of the matter is: taking the time to walk to Verbobonc to gear up can actually save you time (because 40+ AC tanks don't need rest). As a side note, adding the time limits hasn't been as helpful as I thought. When I have 2 days to clear the moathouse, that just forces me to steal Lareth's journal and then recruit Otis and/or Thrommel to quickly levelup in one trip to the temple. In other words, a time limit might solve the 'need justification not to go to Verbobonc' problem, but it might result in a less-fun cheesefest. Maybe the real answer is to construct some story about how trade to Verbobonc is blocked so they don't have any magic goodies for sale until Zuggy is defeated. Or maybe have all the Verbobonc magic-items sellers be imprisoned in the Temple (or working there, in the case of Senshock). That way they need to be freed or Zuggy needs to be taken out before you can buy their stuff.
I'm not sure if the game engine would allow this, but if you implemented a summoned horde of Vrock (instead of the dragon), then there would be no treasure OR xp (a quirk of D&D is that defeating summoned creatures doesn't give you xp).
