"Ideal" Three Character Party

So, I'm looking for a bit of a challenge, but not a huge challenge, so I've decided to go with a three character party, which is a first for me. No NPCs, except temporary quest ones.

I'm trying to put together a party that can handle most tasks. Not necessarily "optimal", but well balanced. This is what I have so far, and I would welcome any input. Or, feel free to post about your own ideal party.

Character 1: Dwarf, Straight Cleric.
Tanks, Uses Dwarven Waraxe, Hero's Shield, Dwarven Plate. Skills: Diplomacy and Concentration. That's right; the dwarf is the diplomat, and the only one without a negative charisma modifier.

Character 2: Human. Druid 1 > Barbarian 1 > Druid X. Uses a Glaive. Starts out with Spell Focus (Concentration) & Augment Summoning. I feel like summons will be especially important in a three person party. The level of barbarian gives fast movement, martial weapon proficiencies, and a 1/day rage, all of which will be useful here. Skills: Concentration, Listen, Spot, Survival.

Character 3: Elf. Rogue 1 > Wizard 5 > Rogue 2 > Wizard 9 > Rogue 3 > Wizard X
Enough Rogue levels to handle the traps and locks, and a bit of other skills besides.

And that's the gist; at level 6 I would get them all an item creation feat; Arms & Armor for the cleric (holy weapons), Wondrous Item for the wizard and druid. That way, they can use the excess experience they will be getting productively.

 

Character 1: Diplomatic Dwarf is pretty funny. If you run the sun domain, you can put his CHA to good use.

Character 2: Personally I wouldn't bother with the Barbarian level. The benefits it gives aren't that impressive, considering you'll probably be using your spells more anyway. Using summons may probably destroy the whole point of a 3-man run since they do kinda count as extra manpower.

Character 3: You probably won't need lockpicking since you can always just cast Knock instead.

 

IIRC Warp Wood is in this game- use that to open locks- and the only lock I had difficulty with was the chest that you need to open to gain access to the Arena of Heroes (it's been a while since I played but I never needed the Knock spell). For your elf rogue I'd say just stay with it for the 1st level and then concentrate on your wizard- with only 3 members the XP will come fast and you'll be able to get to the levels needed to craft items sooner. I'm sure your crafted items will be handier than your lock picking skills ...

 

Hmm... good advice. I think I'm going to stick with the one barbarian level (I like being able to use glaives/falchions/great flails too much, as well as raging and fast move), but reduce the rogue progression to:

Rogue 1 > Wizard 7 > Rogue 2 > Wizard X.

The 2nd level of rogue will get me evasion, and allow me to dump a ton of points into tumble at that level, both of which will help my wizard to get out of some tight spots since he can't exactly take a lot of hits. The initial skill distribution, plus masterwork tools, will get me above +10 for open locks and disable device, and I can use knock as you say for locks that cannot handle.

For the dwarf, I was indeed planning on Pelor Good/Sun domains.

How does that sound?

Regarding the summons destroying the point of a 3 man party, I respectfully disagree. The point (at least for me) isn't that you have three bodies, but that you have the resources of three characters. I don't think using summons destroys the point anymore than using fireball destroys the point.

 

You might consider adding two fighter levels to your Dwarven cleric. The fighter levels will make him a true tank and open up his weapon selection. In a recent playthrough, I used a Dwarven cleric/fighter (just 2 fighter levels, the rest cleric): I equipped him with Hedrack's plate armor, boots, and gloves while wielding the holy spiked chain. He was a tank!

 

I'll agree with Goshi on your human druid: You probably don't need barbarian levels. A druid can cast the first level spell Longstrider, which gives a plus 10' to movement, and it lasts a long time.

I usually like to make my druids elves so they can use longbows. I'll then get the feats Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot for an archer build. Being an elf, you gain weapon proficiencies in long bow and long sword, so I find you don't really need to add a fighter class for weapons.

 

For the dwarven cleric, I don't think delaying spells by that much would be worth it for the fighter levels; maybe when i get high in levels. The cleric is meant to be a shield and a caster more than a melee damage dealer, though he's okay at that too, given the Dwarven Waraxe. He doesn't have much to gain from more weapon selection.

For the druid, I'm not sure that archers are very viable in 3 character parties; it is too hard to keep them out of melee. Also, starting as human gets me Augment Summoning from level 1, which is very helpful.

 

I see your point, but if you have enough augmented summons around, they should provide enough of a meat shield that you could pick off a few weakened foes with arrows and save your spells for when you really need them...

 

High Str pure Druid with Reach Weapon - attacks over said summons, and gets extra attacks by virtue of AoO (works best with a tripping character). A HO with 18 Str and a Longspear is rather economical for a long time, and you can pick up Exotic: Spiked Chain or Barb dip later if you so wish.

My Druid casts most rounds, so 5 foot step & reach AoO (and Combat Reflex) milk two roles from the one cow

 

I agree with your comment re delaying Clr progression on the dwarf by taking 2 levels of Ftr. Spells are the most versatile and powerful class feature going, and delaying acquistion of the next spell level is a hard thing for me to do. I'd probably ditch the Brb and Rog levels on the other two. I can't remember if Knock works on the HoH chest- I'm pretty sure Warp Wood didn't when I played with my 'tier 1 trio' and I ended up hiring Furnok to open the chest.iirc he needed leveling up even with Cat's Grace active, so I took him for a brief tour of the Temple and I got used to having him around (I'm even more partial to sneak attack damage than to new spell levels!) so he stayed on.

 

One cleric and one wizard. These two aren't debatable. The third spot can either go to a cleric, druid or a wizard, depending on taste; cleric might be best, though. Druids are pretty crippled in ToEE, since bears don't get improved grab and there are no ways to access equipment while wild-shaped. Also, most enemies are chaotic evil which makes clerics with the good and law domain pretty powerful (holy smite, order's wrath) and they can survive in melee where squishy wizards are fodder.

 

Played LOTS of different party ideas. Some were difficult to manage some were super duper bad-ass powerfull. But the ones I had , probably, most fun were these two: first, Guild of Thieves ( 4 Rogues + 1 Cleric of Oli ) which wouldn't fit your Three party requirement and ,second, The Three Wise Men ( Wiz, Cle, and Dru ) massive fun and relatively easy to go all the way through.

 

Report on the party.

Currently:

Cleric 12
Wizard 11 / Rogue 1
Druid 11 / Barbarian 1

Overall, VERY effective. I don't regret the barbarian level for the druid; yes, it slows down progression, but she levels so quickly anyway... and it's let me use a bunch of awesome weapons; e.g. frost brand, moradin's soul hammer, etc, which otherwise I would have to leave aside.

The augment summoning has been a lifesaver; the druid just spams beasts for a few rounds, then wades in there with whatever weapon she happens to be using. It was a pleasant surprise to find out that Augment Summoning gives its bonus to summoning creatures from items, so the druid uses the elemental gems found in the nodes; summoning that large earth elemental with +4 str, +4 con is great.

The 1 level of rogue has been great; I was able to get tumble to the point of automatic success for my wizard, as well as have a bunch of other skills. I've kept up with disable device, but have relied mostly on 'knock' for locks after the first few levels. I haven't taken the 2nd level of rogue yet, and am debating hard on whether to or not. The evasion would be very nice; there have been a few times that would have saved my wizard.

Straight cleric is great, of course. My dwarven diplomat has been useful; 2 skill points a level into diplomacy and concentration, and then uses the circlet of discernment for sense motive. I can't bluff or intimidate, which limits some quest options, but not a major loss.

Crafting has been great; since they all have at least one crafting feat, I've been able to keep them at the same level. Taken advantage of the broken crafting system a bit. At level 9, had my wizard scribe a huge stack of 1st level spells (caster level 9), so he now has an effectively unlimited supply of magic missiles/burning hands, etc. to fall back on if he runs out of other stuff to do. He was rarely hitting with his bow at that point.

 

I feel a monster post coming on . . .

First of all, I think it’s a fallacy that fewer characters make the game more difficult. That is probably true at 1st level, but not overall. Fewer players means that you level-up faster and that you have less demand for resources (meaning you can better equip fewer players). I just started a 5-person party and it has been the most challenging game that I’ve played in a while (I normally use 1, 2, or 3 characters – though admittedly, I normally use invisibility to bypass the moathouse).

Evasion is a really nice ability, but assuming that you have run through the game before (so know what’s coming), it’s really not that important. The main use for evasion is in the fire node – where you can just use resist energy and/or protection from energy without having to waste levels on rogue. Similarly, there aren’t THAT many locked chests in the game, so it’s kind of a waste to take levels just for that (when the knock or warp wood spell would suffice). As for tumble, your wizard should be hanging back enough to where this is rarely helpful and you should also have Dex as her 2nd priority. Because you only need to roll a modified 15 to tumble, you can easily accomplish that with a high Dex and only half-ranks in tumble. By 9th level you should have at least a +5 Dex modifier and 6 ranks in Tumble, so a pure wizard would only need to roll a 4 (or less with a better Dex) to tumble. Maybe you don’t want to wait for 9th level to be a highly-reliable tumbler, but again, your wizard is hanging WAY back, so it really shouldn’t come up very often.

Note: spiked chain requires an exotic weapon proficiency that anyone can take. Therefore there is NO benefit in taking fighter levels for weapon selection if you are going to use a spiked chain. Yes, the fighter levels will give you two extra feats, but a straight cleric can use plate armor and a spiked chain without those levels.

I use archers effectively in 2-person parties (hang back; 5-foot step before firing). With summoning, this should not be a concern AT ALL. A 1-person party with summoning could probably effectively use archery – though I admit I haven’t tried this yet.

I think you are mis-remembering. Warp Wood does work on the HoH chest. It’s Knock that does not work on that chest. With Warp Wood, there is no need for the Open Lock skill.

Of course they are debatable. Wizard is harder to debate, but an argument could be made for a paladin-sorcerer instead (especially with a small party). The high Cha Pal-Sor is basically immune to spells (take 2-3 levels of paladin) and those early paladin levels will make the caster much more durable (which is what you need in small parties at low levels). Otherwise, yes, wizard is 100% better than sorcerer. I can’t imagine why anyone would play a sorcerer unless it was a high Cha pal-sor (except for flavor, but this topic isn’t about flavor it’s about optimization). As for the cleric, sure clerics are good, but a druid can be equally effective. The pros for the cleric: (1) better armor EARLY on (but not in the late-game) and unless your cleric has the plant domain, the benefits of the druid’s barkskin outweigh the benefits of better early-armor. (2) Turn undead is nice for quickly overcoming undead. But all of those situations where it’s useful (Emridy Meadows, moathouse dungeon, etc.) are easy fights to win with regular combat (none of those undead are very dangerous). (3) Crafting holy weapons. Holy weapons are VERY nice – the key to domination, really. BUT there are already holy weapons in the game. And for a small party (of 3 or less), there are easily enough good holy weapons to where there is absolutely no reason to craft more (that would just be a waste of money and xp). So is it debatable? Definitely. Unless your cleric lacks the plant domain. Then it’s not debatable, druid is clearly better.
And by the way, the best possible character is not a wizard or a cleric but a fighter-rogue. An enlarged fighter-rogue (4 levels of fighter) with whirlwind attack, great cleave, combat reflexes, black elven chain, +3 keen holy ranseur/glaive (with some elemental bursts), +3 Hero’s shield or Terjon’s shield (and preferably greater invisibility) is the best possible character in this game (obviously throw in a belt of strength +6, gloves of dex +6, ring of free movement, and ring of protection).

I don’t have any problem with the barbarian level – probably helpful early on. But for optimization purposes, a buffed up long spear is better than any of those weapons (and you have the necessary characters to buff the long spear to a holy +3 keen longspear with serious elemental damage).

Maybe. Or maybe you would have had the exact same results with regular summoned beasts. Augment Summoning is probably helpful at low levels with low-level summons, but I am skeptical about the value of spending two feats on Augment Summoning. I’ve played with and without AS, and I couldn’t really notice any difference (except the character without AS has two other clearly useful feats).

But at 11th level, your wizard could have automatic success even without the rogue level (7 ranks +7 Dex bonus = auto success). Sure you have “a bunch of other skills”, but were those helpful? Personally, I’d only take rogue levels for a party leader or a sneak attacker.

I wouldn’t take the 1st level of rogue. But once you take that, you might as well take the 2nd.

 

Wow, a monster post indeed. I agree that smaller parties aren't at any real disadvantage, particularly if all casters. Spells are king in D&D and as you say faster levelling up offsets numerical disadvantages. Case in point: the moathouse discussion on the other thread. Hit that fight with 7 PCs and you have 7 level 3 guys to protect as you bring them up to fight. Hit it with 3 PCs (clr, wiz, drd) at 5th level and it's trivial: if the fireball doesn't get them the summon monster 3 will. Even you take lots of casters, fewer higher level ones will do better given the massive jump in power every spell level.
Hit 9 th level and you effectively have unlimited spells: just teleport home and rest for 8 hours when you're running out.