How I find the children?

I found the two stewards, they talked to me about lots of interesting things.

Then I used the spells the guy below (above according to him) my castle suggested, dunno why, to me they sounded 100% arbitrary and I had no reason to use them, nothing in the stewards dialogs suggested there was more dialog when using spells.

But anyway, I did that, and also used the item the guy suggested (the one on the emporium).

Both stewards said the same thing: That the day steward was the culprit (and indeed, he had a children locket on him, that I got by knocking him out), and that the children are in the tables below the viscount house.

I already wandered in every inch below the viscount house, used the search skill with my ranger, and no children.

I hear children laughter when I am totally somewhere else though (I guess that is the laughter of the ghosts of previous children murdered).

So, how I find the children? I found no more clues, the stewards, and the lizardmen speak nothing new anymore, and there are no new clue given by the guy below my castle.

And frankly, whoever thougth that making a Fedex quest about running around in a ridiculously huge sewer is good idea, is an idiot, this quest is really, really, really annoying, running around in a empty sewer in a Fedex quest is one of the worst RPG quests I ever saw.

 

Well, part of the problem may be that you are approaching this quest as a "side quest in a video game", this quest was designed to make the player actually think and reason.

It's best to approach this quest as if you are a detective and are actually trying to find these missing children, myself I choose not to believe everything everyone says when questioned, there's a good chance that a murderer might also be a liar.

Of course, a player could refer to gazra's excellent guide and walk through for the answers and locations.

 

I just noticed that each time I talked to someone, a reputation changed.



So, what I have is: two characters told me the same story when I used 100% arbitrary spells that another character told me to use.

I also used the detect lie crown thing.

Also my character has with the circled, 56 points in sense motive (without the circlet it is 26), 32 in diplomacy, 24 charisma, is a paladin, and has feats about that stuff.


So, everyone lied, in a agreeing lie, and even the interface lies.

How the hell I am supposed to win this quest then? By sheer blind luck? This is not thinking then, it is even worse designed than I thought.


Something that would not surprise me, since now I tried talking to the captain, and had the option to tell him the quest was solved, I told him the quest is solved, and he asked how, and the only option avialable was "goodbye".

Then I talked to him again, and had a option to ask more about the quest, and when I choose that option, the only option is also "goodbye"

So what I have: 2 suspects told me where the children are, and who the culprit is.

The reputation tab tell me who the culprit is.

The captain refuses to talk with me, any option when I Try to talk to him results in "goodbye"

And I spent 3 hours (yes, I looked on a clock here) today (this is not counting a previous attempt at this quest) just wandering around a stupid empty sewer in a stupid fedex quest that is broken or badly designed.


Frankly how this is NOT a typical RPG sidequest?

Captain tell me exactly what to do, the guy below the castle also tell me exactly what to do, everything I must do is walk around a boring sewer until I fight the correct people, and do what they said to me to do, until the quest breaks and stop advancing, this to me sounds like 100% a typical RPG sidequest, no detective work here, no thinking or guessing, it was just boringly walking around empty corridors and casting spells and checking all dialog options, that were very predictable and obvious.

 

Your last paragraph explains why you are failing at solving this mystery. No one in the game is going to spell it out for you, no shiny quest marker is going to pop up when you notice it, it's up to you to figure out what should be done and how to do it.

Many folks have solved this mystery and found it quite rewarding when they did figure it out.

If the quest is causing you discomfort, may I suggest just leaving it and moving on to something else. This mystery is not needed to complete the game, nor is it tied to any other more traditional quests in Verbobonc.

 

So what you are saying in short is:


Yes, the designer of the quest made a interface text that lie.
Yes, the captain won't complete the quest now that I talked to him and his options are only "goodbye".
And if I don't like it, that I should not play it.


Alright, I won't.

 

While I applaud the attempt to do a 'mystery' thing vs a "FedEx" quest, the overall design of the quest means I have to agree with Speeder.

* quest requires TONS of monotonous walking around. While realistic when "working a case", it's not what people play RPGs for.
* not having Panathean (?) spawn until after you've talked to both the stewards, and/or having the children not spawn until after you've talked to him is as UNrealistic as having to walk around empty tunnels for hours to find any of them is realistic (and just as annoying/badly designed). If there was a secret door or similar involved, maybe, but to say Panathean was hiding in a room you went through a couple times before and/or the kids were hidden under a table you already passed an untold number of times is just dumb.
* I can maybe see what someone was TRYING to do with the verbal cues from the stewards to use certain spells to get them to talk, but shouldn't Diplomacy and/or Intimidate have some chance to work in those situations?
* When the NPCs finally DID talk I got options to ask about the kids - great, but none actually got an answer, Apparently one needs exceedingly high Diplomacy/Intimidate/Bluff/Sense Motive numbers to get anything besides mumbling or walking/running away? Or was I missing something? What level were they expecting PCs to be when doing this?
* having the keys to whole thing apparently dependent on a spell that doesn't work and/or a magic item that's only rarely available from one (or maybe two) merchants is TERRIBLE design.
* if you talk to Panathean and arrest him, he joins your party, the Captain won't take him into custody, and you can't get him to leave? Whaaa???? What are you supposed to do with him?

 

If What Lies Beneath has you frustrated I recommend reading garzra_1971's Game Guide and Walkthrough.

This quest is in section 2.21.

 

Three things:

1 - I'm not saying it's a bad quest because I couldn't do it/solve it. I'm voicing my opinion that it's badly designed because (a) the incessant walking around is just plain annoying (especially given the fact you find out later you've passed the hiding spaces multiple times and were just not allowed to find anyone yet; (b) you say it was supposed to NOT be a typical FedEx puzzle, but the fact that you must do X then do Y then do Z (despite other viable, and IMHO more logical options - see below) makes it exactly that. (Especially if the Rabbit Hole quest supposedly tells you what to do. I wouldn't know, I haven't had the option to do that quest show up yet in my game.) If they wanted it to be a puzzle based on logic, great - they start to, with the NPCs' verbal "clues" - but those "clues" (which should lead to other info, or that you should be able to LOGICALLY compare and find inconsistencies in) turn out to be just "cues" to use an arbitrarily designated spell - that's not logic, that's "follow my specific formula".

2 - Along those lines, for a quest that was designed to be a logic puzzle rather than a go here / do that sequence, they seem to have thrown logic out the window half the time - why can't you intimidate the steward who's "not afraid of you"? or diplomacize the one who "doesn't trust you"? Logically speaking, if they're good enough to not be Intimidated (or Diplomacized) by a 11th level PC, they're probably gonna save against Cause Fear or Charm Person - so why logically try those spells? Being a high level caster who hasn't encountered anything susceptible to CF or CP for a few levels, maybe you try a higher level spell first (Dominate Person anyone?) - that doesn't work on either of them, so why would it be "logical" to try a LESS powerful spell??
Off of that rant, why can't you turn Panathean in? Shouldn't you do that, not just find him then leave him there?
Most frustratingly, there's no reason beyond "I want it to happen in this order" that the kids (or Panathean, for that matter) couldn't be found whenever you first walk through whatever room they're "hidden" in, not just after you've talked to the other NPCs. Are they in some extra-dimensional space that only ceases to function after you talk to some guy they've (in the case of my game at least) NEVER MET? If the culprit can hide two kids (who presumably want to be rescued) under a table well enough that it takes someone with a +19 Spot MULTIPLE TIMES through the room to find them, "logic" is long gone from the equation. (And there's no reason it has to be done sequentially - even if you found the kids first thing, they wouldn't necessarily know who did it, and you would still need the info and evidence to lay the blame, right?)

3 - I did read Gazra's (mostly great) walkthrough. Knowing what you're supposed to do doesn't make it less boring to have to walk around empty hallways for looooooong times, doesn't make the actions necessary less arbitrary, doesn't reveal supposed logic that isn't there, and doesn't make the fact you walked past that table 18 times and NOW you see the kids any less dumb.

Sorry, it's just not well done. :no:

 

Spoilers:

Spoiler

Actually the kids aren't exactly in an extradimensional space, but neither are they full-time residents of the prime material plane either...

It's while since I did this for the first time, and I'm pretty sure that the walkthrough guide wasn't up. I think I managed to work out to ask uncle O, and had some success with the cause fear on my own. I think I tried using discern lies as a spell and was a bit peeved it didn't work, but I guess that's an engine limitation (as is the other minor niggle that even with a barbarian and a monk , it can still be difficult to catch up with the warden who runs off- difficulties of clicking in the right spot and selecting the dialogue options in time). My main recollection is of the whole thing being quite eerie, and a sense of time (in game) ticking by without progress being made, which is quite unusual and disquieting, especially for a cRPG. It would he nice if the exits from the sewers weren't one way, and if you could persuade the captain who doesn't believe in the supernatural to join up for a tour of the elemental nodes, but you can't have everything.

 

Okay, putting aside all the good/bad opinion, straight up : what am I missing? (Near as I can tell from gazra's walkthrough, I've done more than enough - considering he says you don't need the locket?)

I've talked to O, purchased the circlet, feared R (who confessed), KO'd R (and got the locket - turned it into evidence), charmed B (no info received, but he's tagging along now), talked to P, subsequently KO'd P (and got his journal and the emerald), charmed P (couldn't turn him in because I "didn't know if he was the culprit", so he's tagging along, too), got "attacked" by P while he was charmed (spouting about Boccob - had some talking options that revealed nothing, then he stopped) found and returned the kids, went back and charmed R, so now I have all three NPCs with me in front of the Captain, BUT....

Log still says I need a third piece of evidence. Confession = one, locket = two (though gazra's walkthrough says you don't need it ?), so what did I miss/am I missing? Not getting more info options from P,B or R. Apparently P's journal doesn't count (cause he's nuts?)? The kids can't testify or something? Is there a problem, or what?

 

THX. Appreciate it.