1st time playing Monk, help needed

I am going to read up some more on the class and other advice posted here. I sort of stuck with my knowledge of monks based on 1st-2nd edition DnD rules as I leveled and picked feats in TOEE. Having magical attack with a monk in DnD was always a challenge when playing a monk. This is why i used a druid in the group for TOEE and the Druid is a class i havent really played in TOEE. Greater Magical Fang last a very long time and I think really brings the monk up to par in those mid levels.

I agree with you zurg in some ways about the monk. But as you said, I think there are some interesting things to explore with this class.

 

I stand behind what I said ....

It's my preference and it's up to me what I choose.

I really do think that if you want to learn how to play a monk, then play a monk and not a hybrid that resembles a monk.

Btw, I recently beet the game with three pure monks and they owned the battlefield with improved init, weapon focus unarmed, great cleave, flurry of blows and Wholeness of body.

 

Better than Paladins though. Only stats a Monk really needs is DEX and WIS. Lower STR is affordable since Monks can use Weapon Finesse, probably the preferred choice too since you'll probably want to throw all your stat points into DEX. Monks will have ridiculous amount of AC late game along with Evasion and Diamond Body, so they can almost get away with lower CON.

Paladins though need STR for their attacks, CON so they don't die, WIS for their spells AND CHA for Smite Evil and insane saving throws. Of course, there's the fact that Paladins get better returns from their crazy stat allocations... but anyway.

I guess if you want to run high STR and want to make use of Power Attack. But IMO, Monks are more optimal with two-weapon fighting since Flurry of Blows helps augment the ridiculous number attacks you can get. Also, Quarterstaffs use 1d6 for their damage dice... same as a Kama and Tonfa... and they can be dual wielded. Also Daos deal 1d8 damage AND can be dual wielded... though despite being considered a Monk weapon... you need Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Butterfly Sword) to use them effectively... oh well.

low ac what



I've posted this image, what, three times now? Monks have the ridiculously high AC. The End.

I actually think they compliment each other quite nicely. Use Fast Movement to tumble past the enemy's front lines and use a Trip Attack on any threatening caster or archer. On your next turn, if the enemy survives your AoO, finish them off with a Full Attack, otherwise rush across the battlefield to your next target. Combined with their high AC, Evasion and Diamond Body, Monks are incredible anti-caster characters.


Monks are a flawed class in the end of the day though, but they're way better than Rangers and Barbarians. Though like those two classes, they really start to shine when you multiclass with them. Sneak Attack is incredible on a two-weapon Monk. Monks are also pretty pressed on Feats so Fighter levels can be quite helpful.

 

@Goshi3156- add an Amulet of Wisdom +6 and Barksin and your monk will have an AC of 40+...

 

Don't forget Combat Expertise as well!

 

And an extra +4 AC if you check defensive fighting, which would give an AC of almost 45

 

Yet you still will get hit when that goblin rolls three crits in a row.

 

Unfortunately, almost impossible to be hit isn't impossible to be hit...

 

first off, even if you dump strength, charisma and intelligence you still need constitution, as every other class, but even more so because you happen to fight in melee and only have a d8 hit die. also, you select weapon finesse on level 3, because you dumped strength. how do you hit stuff on the first two levels? that's the opposite of newbie-friendly, exactly what i've said.

then you're level 6 and use 2wf. ok, so your human (no small race because you want that superior movement and -2 con/wis of elves and half-orcs, respectively, are killers) monk's attack bonus is +4 bab +5 dex +1 weapon -2 2wf -1 flurry = +7/+7/+7/+2. a raging half-orc barbarian on the other hand has an ab of +6 bab +10 str +2 weapon (because he only needs 1 weapon and is less m.a.d.) = 18/13. this means he can dump 11 points into power attack for a plus of 22 damage. 1 hit with your kama does 1d6+1 damage, an average of 4,5 points of damage, this is roughly one fifth of the barbarians power attack bonus damage, but you only have two more attacks. the barbarian's weapon damage of 2d6+1 +15 (an average of 23) is not even in this equation. now imagine your opponent has a damage reduction of 5/anything other than magic or slashing. so even if your monk hits with every attack, chances are that he doesn't do a single point of damage.

as for tripping... tripping relies on strength. you have dumped strength. your chance to trip guys is thus pretty small. on top, if you really ran 50 feet right to the rear of your enemies, you have a wall of team monster between you and your allies. if your enemies are not super stupid, they'll focus their attacks on you.

what you are actually arguing is, that once you've hit the level cap, you can grind for a shitload of gold and buy your monk way more and way better stuff than would be level appropriate, which makes it possible to create two kamas which deal holy, axiomatic, fire, cold, acid and electricity damage and equip bracers of armor +5, a belt of giant strength, gloves of dexterity and a periapt of wisdom +6. but you didn't actually play this character through the levels and until the point where you can actually do that you will have the above mentioned problems.

again, i'm not saying you can't play a monk and that a monk can't contribute in toee, but it is by far the worst non-casting class for any new player.

 

To the original poster, depending on what you want to get out of "YOUR" game, I think it really just depends on how you want to roll a monk and when to multi-class to a wizard. It's hard to say the right way to do it since some people are powergamers, some roleplayers doing their pnp character, some roll-players who only wants the most powerful character, etc...

I don't think you mentioned who you plan to have in your party, but some key facts of when to multi depends on when monks get key abilities. When I considered a monk myself, I either take 1 or 2 levels. A 1 level splash is if you purely want that monk +wis AC bonus. This is with no armor and unencumbered so typically, someone doing this would be a wizard probably or a cleric or druid who also has a high wis score to benefit from it.

2 is pretty safe in general as you get +1 BAB and 2 feats that are real nice (Evasion and Combat Reflexes). I tend to take Combat Reflexes anyways so a level 2 of monk is like taking a fighter level for just the bonus feat. Downside of monk levels is they have to be continuous so if you are trying to manage your skill ranks, it's harder to do as a monk. Your saves also go up +1 across the board as a lvl 2 monk so that's where I typically stop.

Lvl 3 monk gets you fast move +10 which I don't care about...As a wizard, you also get the Expeditious Retreat spell which is +30. Also +2 saves on enchantment spells which as a monk, your saves are pretty good already. Most enchantment spells are probably will saves too so as a wizard, that score is pretty high so I tend to stop as a multi-monk at 2...

Overall, I tend to like STR characters as Weapon Finesse is a burn of a feat and feats are so few already...as mentioned, high damage reduction makes low dam, high hit characters powerless so I tend to maximize STR in pretty much all my melee characters. STR is also used to depend on hit and damage so nicer to just max 1 stat.

Lastly, having so much AC doesn't matter in how I am currently playing ToEE (ironman, 1 character solo). With enemies casting spells, just AC alone could mean restarting the game again.

If you don't have another PC to help you craft items, that will make it harder for you as well...

The key thing for my play through is trying to control the battlefield (getting swarmed is bad) and probably getting some meat shields to draw some fire.

All this said, figure out how you want to play the game and your build sorta depends/follows that more so than what is optimal for someone else.

In general, monks tend to not dominate the other classes for the various stated reasons...

 

Have the stars align and hope for a miracle, alternatively, use a projectile weapon like a crossbow or a longbow (If you're an elf) until you get Weapon Finesse. Alternatively, if you start as a Fighter you can grab Weapon Finesse right from the first level... but I would only advise that if you were planning on multiclassing as Fighter anyway.

Use a different weapon instead? You can switch weapons in the middle of battle or even beforehand if you scout ahead or... can see the future with your powers of "having played the game before". If an enemy has 5/Bludgeoning, use Tonfas or your fists instead. Enemy has 5/Slashing? Use your Kamas or Daos.

Yeah I forgot that, my bad.

That's what the high AC is for. You can even raise it further with Combat Expertise if you're worried about the enemy landing hits.

Actually you can grab that stuff as soon as you hit level 6 or as soon as reach Nulb... whichever comes first

But yeah, as far as weapons are concerned, Monks really need an artificer of some kind regardless of weapon they're using. If they're going unarmed, they'll need someone who can craft them a Monk's Belt and Amulet of Mighty Fists. If they're going with Kamas, they'll need someone to enchant them with some Axiomatic goodness.

As for the AC, most of the stuff is treasure in-game anyway or can bought in stores. You don't need to craft them unless you want ones with really high values early on.

This happens more than I like to admit... worse yet, they even get confirmed T_T

 

even more weapons? how do you pay for all that unless you're fighting with non-magical gear? also, elementals have 5/-, as do mummies, and most demons have at 5+/good and cold iron; there are lots of creatures which seriously harm, if not cripple, the 2wf-style without bonus damage.

you don't reach high ac until you're at least level 8, and as others have pointed out: ac fails 5% of the time no matter how high it is. as for combat expertise: good luck using it with your 2wf monk who already has trouble hitting stuff with his full bab applied.

 

I think every class of character is going to have flaws or weaknesses, that's just part of the game's design.

DnD is designed to be a party based adventure, each the party's members have strengths that compliment the fellow members weaknesses.

If it was very easy to build a single character to take through any encounter I think TOEE would be called WoW or something like that.

I think a pure monk is one of the most fun classes to have in my party, especially for taking out opposing magic users.

 

... With money?

Seriously though, the game is generous when it comes to handing out gold. For the enemies that require bludgeoning weapons (Like skeletons or oozes) I just use regular masterwork weapons (Or just use the Monk's fists). Pimped up magical sticks is just overkill.

Mummies!? WHERE!? NO ONE TOLD ME THERE WERE MUMMIES IN THIS GAME!

Holy weapons get around that. Cold Iron AFAIK isn't implemented in ToEE. I've already agreed with you that weapon using Monks are reliant on enchantments =/

If you use fists though, they already bypass damage reduction anyway. At 4th level they're considered magical weapons. At 10th they're considered lawful. And at 16th they're considered adamantine... and can also ignore hardness (Though sundering isn't implemented in ToEE but whatever).

Why level 8? Crafting usually becomes available at level 6. Rings of Protection and Bracelets of Armor can bought from Nulb... or dropped by NPCs in Hommlet for the more villainous ones...

18 DEX and WIS alone grant a +8 bonus to AC as well.

In some cases, you probably won't care if you hit the enemy. Expertise makes Monks decent decoys against enemies like say... the 4 Avatars of Iuz for example. Yes, there's that nasty 5% (More like 50% but anyway) chance of getting struck even with ridiculous levels of AC... but its still a decent strategy to consider.

 

Personally I prefer to hit opposing magic users with Stinking Cloud followed up with Fireballs....:yes: