Build advice - Ironman Lvl 10 cap, 1 pc, 3 npcs - Druid 9 - Wiz 1

Build advice for ironman solo to lvl 10 in general

I wanted to get people's opinion on my build for a no-reload (Ironman) playthrough of ToEE. I've done searches and read as many build suggestions as I could find online, but didn't see my specific build idea below since it's sorta middle of the road in terms of spells/combat. Most druid builds I've seen has spell focus (Conj) and Augment summoning which I didn't want to burn 2 feats on. Natural Spell also seems less useful if your AC drops a lot during wild shape.

I've tried to not read any spoilers, but have played the game probably 5-10 years ago+ and got as far as maybe 1 level of the temple itself, but don't really remember much at all. I initially played it without the Co8 mod so I wanted to give it another go with the mod this time.

I just tried to play it with a Cleric 7 / Fighter 2 / Wiz 1, but died on a random encounter as a lvl 1 cleric / 1 wiz / 1 fighter on a random map with some large crayfishes so I wanted to give this another go with a more "spell casting" type character.

My plan was to use a Druid 9 / Wiz 1 (lvl 10 cap).
Wiz 1 for the free scribe scroll feat since I hate having to keep resting and scrolls will give me unlimited casting of spells in general (mostly cure scrolls). My previous solo (no NPC that time) playthrough actually was also a druid, but I got sick of having to run back to town to rest and got wiped out by the room with all the mobs in it.

I picked druid for broad utility and instead will focus on reach weapons and trip.
Human for the extra feat. I plan to just roll for stats rather than the harder 25 point buy.

1 Druid 1 - Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
2 Wizard 1
3 Druid 2 - Combat Reflexes
4 Druid 3
5 Druid 4
6 Druid 5 - Craft Wondrous Item
7 Druid 6
8 Druid 7
9 Druid 8 - Craft Magical Arms & Armor
10 Druid 9

With summons not being the smartest and short durations, I figure I'll depend on my own weapon instead, but will still have a pet to take some hits.

The wizard level will also get me enlarge person to be able to use reach weapons further and even with a scimitar and also for a +4 str bonus when tripping due to the size bonus.

I would've like 2 levels of fighter like my cleric above to get power attack and cleave, but figure for really tough mobs, having level 5 druid spells like stoneskin would be more useful (compared to cleric lvl 5 spells).

With only 9 levels of druid, I assume I won't be able to craft the burst weapons? Maybe I could get the mage NPC to craft it, but wanted to be able to do all the crafting myself and not depend on an NPC.

I could dump the mage level and crafting to get 10 druid with scrolls, but now, I wouldn't' be able to craft and would lose enlarge person size bonus for better trip ability.

I also would've like Improved Initiative, but figure after the 1st round, the combat reflexes and better trip is more important...or, just dump craft arms and get improved initiative...that's probably the best overall perhaps.



Anyone have any hints or thoughts on my planned build?


Edit: I'm leaning towards just dumping Craft Arms and Armor and going with Improved Initiative instead since I won't be able to make the best stuff.

Edit: A part of me is also wondering if I should also consider being a cleric with the strength domain to get the enlarge person spell and just get scribe scroll as a feat to replace craft arms and armor...

 

I did a bit more testing and even though Improved Initiative is nice, it's not a sure thing to always start first in a round so I don't think it's worth it to use a feat on it. I also tested Scribe scroll and 1 lvl of wizard a bit more and it's extremely powerful as you can scribe higher level scrolls you can't cast yet into your spell book and still cast them from scrolls using the scribe scroll feat. This will allow me to cast things like keen for the scimitar.

The downsides of lvl 9 druid is no burst weapons so I thought about taking 2 levels of fighter instead and give up lvl 5 spells since you can't craft the best weapons within the game anyways, but that'd be making the character more like my cleric so I decided against that for now.

Since being dependent on weapons in the game would be very limiting for a druid since it can't use all the weapons found, I'm now leaning towards just keeping craft arms again and the same feats above.

Power Attack might be worth taking since with true strike and high AC monsters, I can get +12 damage with a 2-handed weapon (6 BAB) when you aren't enlarged (it seems bugged). I assume this would double to +24 on a critical for a scimitar. I'd have to drop combat reflexes or craft arms or trip though.

I like improved trip since it's like having +8 str and attacking a prone enemy afterwards nets a +4 bonus which is like having +8 strength.

I'll probably test combat reflexes a bit more as well since enemies have tended to swarm me so after that 1st free AoO when they enter your threat area, maybe it's be better to get power attack since I can finish them off a lot faster.

If I had more levels, I could get all the correct feats and wouldn't have to give up on any of the combat tactical feats.

 

First- welcome! Second: your build is slightly unusual but let me ask these questions first:

1-Are you playing vanilla or the modpacks? The reason I ask is that you can raise the level cap to 20 in the front end, so I'm curious as to why you would want to limit yourself in this way, especially since the NC provides plenty of opportunity to reach level 20.

2- Which NPC's are you taking with you? You can get Otis (fighter), Furhnok (thief), Melony (druid), Spurgnior (wizard), Zert (fighter), Ronald (cleric in the NC) and Fruella (unsure of class- thief or druid?) all from Hommlett pretty much as soon as you start to explore the town. Let the NPC's focus on the feats you can't get or don't want to compensate for the ones you don't take, particularly the crafting ones.

3- Th behavior of the animal companions for druids and rangers has been changed. This change also seems to have affected the summoned monsters that are a strong point of the druid class (this is also why druid players usually took the Spell Focus Conjuration and Augment Summoning feats- it made their summoned monsters stronger and tougher to defeat).

3- TheRoyalCanadian (sp?) has a great thread on crafting information- do a search for it and see if you want to use it at all- if not you can focus on other feats.

4- I've only tried a solo run once (just my 1 character- no NPC's) with the NC and easily reached 6th level before even reaching the second floor of the moathouse (was playing a monk BTW). My favorite feats- even when using a full party- are these:

a- Improved Initiative- especially if your Dex isn't 18 or better- you need to move/attack before your attackers do, otherwise expect to reload often- very, very often...

b- Power Attack- to get..
c- Cleave- to get-
d- Great Cleave- extremely useful when playing solo, as is-
e- Combat Reflexes- goes great with Great Cleave, especially if you have an 18 or greater Dex.

If you plan to use missile weapons Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot will keep you from wasting ammunition (add Quick Draw to this so you can switch between melee and missile weapons w/o using a full round), while Dodge and Mobility will help you avoid getting hit. For spell slingers either Spell Focus (x) and Greater Spell Focus (x) or Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration. And while not a feat, always add points to Tumble- no matter the character class, avoiding AOO is always a desirable thing.

As a final suggestion, if you want a druid that can use most of the weapon in this game w/o taking multiple Martial Weapons feat, make them an elf- that way they can use long swords and longbows, of which magical types of both are available in the game. Hope this helps- and good luck! :thumbsup:

 

Thanks so much for your thoughts and suggestions! Sometimes, I probably enjoy making builds as much or more than playing.

1. I was planning to just play with the regular Co8 MODpack without the NC stuff. I wanted to keep the level restriction in place since the original game had it and thought it'd be unfair if I was a lvl 20 character by the time I get to end of the game when the original module was up to lvl 10 max. I figure for the original game, I'd leave it in place and remove it when I replay the NC stuff if I ever get that far.

2. I wasn't sure which NPC to get since my 1st playthrough 5 years+ ago was completely solo. On my last game with my cleric, I had Otis, Spurgnior and at times the monk with the big guy and Zert, but I didn't want to know and read who I could recruit so I am just playing it blind here. I am also assuming that the NPCs can't craft all the weapons since a lot of character builds messages I've seen seem to have people all taking craft arms and armor so I was guessing say Spugnior can't be your weapon crafter, etc...I assume this is wrong then?

3. Yeah, I read about the animal companions on many message boards and with some testing, they seem ok still to me so far. Definitely not as aggressive though. Still, since I am power gaming, the animals and summons don't really compare to PCs with +6 attribute items, very high stats (my last test char had 97 points), and I didn't want to depend too much on pets for my play through...

3. Yeah, I look at TheRoyalCanadian's crafting spreadsheet all the time! Maybe that's cheating too, but I'm ok with that bit since it's more frustrating to screw up training and have to restart if you were building to craft something specific. That 1 arms feat would yield +3 ATT and + DAM of +3 + 3.5 shock + 3.5 frost = +3 att and +10 dam which is pretty good for 1 feat. Also, since I have no plans to reload if I die, I'm ok with getting some help with this part on my play through.

4a. Improved Initiative
I tested this a bit with my druid char and don't think I am going to keep it. The reason is because with so much combat, it's very common that my character still isn't the first to react even with 16 dex and improved initiative. Being so feat starved, I figure I'd rather get something that works more consistently as a bad situation would be bad with or without this feat.

4b/c/d. Power Attack, Cleave and Great Cleave is nice and I have them all on my Cleric character since I was willing to give up lvl 5 spells, but just didn't have the space for it here if I wanted to cast lvl 5 spells. For extremely tough mobs though, I don't think the cleaves are as useful (obviously).

4d. Combat Reflexes is great. I tested this a bit more and think it's better than Cleave since with reach weapons and enlarged, your threat circle is huge. My BAB at lvl 1 was pretty low, but everyone running in to attack you gives you a free attack. The downside is the enemies avoid AoO at DC 15 I think so 25% of the time, they will not get hit automatically. If they are "rogue" types with tumble skills and high dex, they will succeed a lot with their AoO roll so maybe you're only making AoO about 50% of the time. Since you also attack with your full attack bonus, this is a nice free attack though. Main downside I see with this is uber mobs which have very high tumble skills and dex which may make this obsolete. This was why I am considering power attack since it's a straight damage option for you which you can control when to use (and with 2-handed weapons and true strike, you may use that combo all the time).

No real plans to use missiles and didn't want to give up being Human due to being so feat stretched already. I may take tumble actually instead of spot since you're right that it's very useful and I already have listen for a druid (I think my int was 16?).

I'm going to now test casting Expeditious Retreat with Longstrider and see if I can force the computer to keep popping in my threat circle continuously since they seem to trigger it once and that's it. Since power attack doesn't work with enlarged, the power attack option isn't as great though.

Also considering not using NPCs at all, but not knowing what's coming up, I'm not sure I'll be able to finish the game.

Thanks again for spending the time to give me your feedback and thoughts!

 

One more suggestion for you- if you want to maximize your feats then I'd suggest taking at least 2 levels of fighter first- that way you get 3 feats at character creation and your next feat at 2nd level. This would allow you to use all except exotic weapons w/o penalty and you could start with Power Attack, Cleave and Great Cleave and pick up Combat Reflexes at 2nd level- after that you can focus on feats for your druid build.

 

This would also give you a bump in hit points in the early game, a necessity for an iron man build.

 

Thanks for the suggestions! No-reload is great fun and more realistic. I was exploring the moathouse 1st level and found the stairs directly to the ogre. I thought it was the door to the outside, so I wasn't prepared to say the least...Elmo bit it unfortunately immediately after 2 hits and I don't have the coinage to resurrect him yet so we're down a guy now. Luckily for us, the passage was a bit too small for the ogre to get us so we made it through. The ogre seemed more interested in continuously bashing Elmo's body vs. even trying to chase the thief who was in the same room with him.

Here are my stats btw: I opted to max INT for more skill points so I can train tumble as well as all my core skills.
STR 17
DEX 17
CON 16
INT 18
WIS 17
CHA 12

Planning to bump STR and DEX at 4 and 8. I'll see how far I can get with 1 guy down already.

 

WOW! You rolled those stats?

Now that is what I call an awesome roll!

 

Yeah, it took a little while to roll these stats, but not too bad (like after 1 gaming session) and I've rolled higher before with my cleric character, but CHA is more of a throw away for a druid so being able to get 3 18s after 2 level ups is nicer I think.

I just ran into a major problem though with the animal companion attacking you when you're injured nearly killing my thief companion and myself as well. It'd be nice if you can choose both either the old aggressive behavior where your AC dies constantly due to charging into battle or the current setting.

I may have to wait till a newer version of the Co8 mod before continuing since during a close fight, you're more likely to have your pet charge and attack you than it attacking a mob and you can't really afford that on an Ironman run, especially as a Druid which is built on a nice permanent animal companion.

 

Re: Build advice Ironman no reload solo

I gotta say leveling up to 2nd level is insanely hard depending on class...I've restarted numerous times on my latest attempt and feel I now have to get to at least level 2 in Hommlet before trying the spider grove or the moathouse start now. Now trying a barb/wiz/fighter and with lvl 1 as a barb, there's really nothing I have found I can do to stop the grappling attacks of the frogs or the poison of the spiders to past it...

With the entangle spell alone, you can clear both of these easily with a ranged weapon.

With the grappling touch attacks avoiding armor, you're left with pretty much your base AC and dex.

Plan to take lvl 2 as the wizard to get mage armor and shield which should allow me to past the frogs I think. Have to see.

Cool thing is rage stacks with bull's strength making for some massive damage on a crit.

Level breakdown is:
1 Brb 1
2 Wiz 1
3 Wiz 2
4 Wiz 3 (really want that web spell ASAP and stat + spells)
5 Brb 2
6 Wiz 4
7 Wiz 5
8 Wiz 6
9 Wiz 7
10 Fighter 1

Similar feats as my other chars and above with added Extend spell (for extended haste).

Lastly, is there a way to pick up your familiar from the floor after you let it out of your backpack?

 

Big spiders are easy to convince to take a nap.

 

IIRC Mage Armor and Shield don't stack- I'd take Mage Armor for now and another spell instead of Shield, with my personal favorites being Charm Person and Grease. And if you only craft 1 item, it should be the Helm of Reading Magic- it will save you plenty of time and inventory space with all the potions and scrolls to be found even in the vanilla version of the game...

 

Re: Build advice Ironman no reload solo

Talk to it?

 

if they don't, it's a bug:

Mage Armor: "[...] providing a +4 armor bonus to AC."
Shield: "The disk also provides a +4 shield bonus to AC."

 

They definitely (tested as well) stack as they are two different AC locations (armor and shield).

They won't, however stack with wearable armor or a physical shield. Shield is awesome if you're a 2-handed wielder as you get the shield bonus at +4, which is +2 more than a regular shield and you get the benefits of 1.5x STR damage.

With all my chars so far taking at least 1 level of wizard, mage armor is also better than physical armor due to no spell hindrance as well as being effective against touch attacks which typically avoid armor.