the big dipper - XP penalties, max number of classes, alignment, and save stacking

I was thinking about how, strictly speaking, a barbarian is better than a fighter is better than a ranger/paladin from a pure CharOp standpoint...
but I was then reminded that by core rules, a martial character has everything to gain and nothing to lose by dipping. that is, taking 1 level in many classes... unless it gets hit with cross class XP penalties.

the thing is, as long as all your classes except your racial preferred class are within 1 level of each other you do not have XP penalties in PnP... this means a human whose racial preferred class is his highest class, could be a paladin 3/monk 2/fighter2/ranger2/barbarian 11... the 11 doesn't count as it is the highest, the others are all within 1 level of each other and thus no penalty.

Saves: Each class has "strong" and "weak" saves... strong saves give +2 at first level, weak +0 at first level, subsequent progression is +1/2 level rounded down on strong saves, +1/3 level rounded down on weak saves...
by dipping a lot you can get ridiculously strong saves by racking up those +2 bonuses on level 1.

BAB: BAB just stacks, but each class gets 1/level, 0.75/level, or 0.5/level, all rounded down... so taking a lot of 0.75 or 0.5 classes you will not gain bab.

class features:
fighter 2 grants you 2 bonus feats, 3 fortitude, 2BAB.
paladin 3 grants you cha bonus to all saves, immunity to poison, immunity to fear, +4 to allies fear saves, 3 fort, 1 will, 1 ref, detect evil at will, lay on hands, smite evil 1/day. 3BAB and the ability to treat all paladin spells as "on your list" for scroll activation.
monk 2 grants Bonus feat, flurry of blows, unarmed strike, Bonus feat, evasion, +3 to ALL saves, +1BAB
ranger 2 grants 1st favored enemy, Track, wild empathy, Combat style, +3 fort, +3 ref, +2BAB, and the ability to treat all ranger spells as "on your list" for scroll activation.
and barbarian rounds it up nicely...

Note about monk bonus feats: At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

you get much higher saves, same bab (or 1 lower due to monk, but thats acceptable sacrifice for what a monk brings on a 2 level dip), and a ton of useful class features.
You will have to switch alignment somewhere in the middle though. or if you can't, you will have to pass on barbarian, or monk/paladin.

So... is this possible with ToEE? will you get XP penalties? will you be able to even TAKE that many classes (eg, NWN limited you to 3 classes per character)

EDIT: ok, according to in game info, its 2 levels difference from your highest level class not including your racial preferred class.
Also, monks and paladins lose abilities if no longer lawful, so you have to exclude barbarian, or exclude those two...

So I think the best would be monk 2, paladin 3, ranger 1, fighter lots. although you can dip other things to flavor

 

Re: the big dipper - XP penalties, max number of classes, alignment, and save stackin

Hi Taltarmir
I'm sure you could do something like what you are suggesting (Monk/Paladin/Ranger/Fighter) with 1 or 2 levels in the first three classes and then straight fighter thereafter. The only "problem" with doing that in ToEE is that unless you are running a really small group (like 3 PCs and only 1 NPC) you're not going to get above 6th Level Fighter. Not only that but to make this build really effective you need to have pretty high scores in everything except intelligence (and having a decent Intelligence score would be nice: especially if you are running a small party). Personally, if you want a lethal "build" the one that just came to mind was Wizard/Paladin/Monk with 2 or 3 levels in the first two.
The Royal Canadian

 

Re: the big dipper - XP penalties, max number of classes, alignment, and save stackin

1. with a 5 person group you pass level 10, always. that was true since vanilla.
2. so you are saying TOEE engine does allow you to take 4 separate classes for a single character?
3. Why would you need to be MAD? STR + CON is all you need.

a monk/paldadin/ranger/fighter is stronger then just a monk, just a paladin, just a ranger, or just a fighter... if they have identical scores.

 

Re: the big dipper - XP penalties, max number of classes, alignment, and save stackin

Hi Taltamir
I will reply within your reply

The Royal Canadian

 

Re: the big dipper - XP penalties, max number of classes, alignment, and save stackin

which you could convert into gold using item crafting and then continue gaining XP...
obviously you couldn't actually level beyond level 10 with the level cap on.
my point is that total XP earned is way beyond level 10.

monk lets you trade 1 BAB for +3 to fort, +3 reflex, and +3 will; improved unarmed strike actually can be used in toee for the fistfight game (rarely see a game without one), and improved grapple and combat reflexes are plain awesome.
so you get 3 feats for the first two levels, while a fighter gives only 2 feats for first two levels... and you still get those 2 feats from the first two levels of fighter anyways. but since you don't want to lose bab (and HP since its only d6) its probably a good idea to pass on that. you don't need any wisdom for anything worthwhile the monk has to offer; since the monk with tricked out wisdom will never have as good an AC as a fighter with proper armor... (12 starting dex, gloves of dex +6, mithril full plate +2 (+10AC, max dex bonus+4) = AC24
I did make a mistake though, you should get dex for combat reflexes... and starting with fighter to get good feats and then tacking on levels of other classes when you start to run out of really good feats ASAP to take is wise. (no rule says you have to take 2 levels in each dipping class before taking your fighter ranks... you could take fighter 8, dip for 6 levels, and go back to fighter for example)

as for cha... yes those abilities will not be worth much. but immunity to disease isn't cha Dependant. you cannot craft a +4 resistance cloak until level 12, and +5 requires level 15. so a cha 10 paladin with +6 cloak is getting +3 to all saves and can do some decent smiting... lay on hands will be useless anyways since he doesn't have enough levels multiply his cha bonus by.

as for the spells. you have druids, sorcerers, wizards, and clerics for spells... emulating their spells is not needed... and bull strength and eagle splendor are both NOT stacking with items, and a +6 item is better...
maxed out appraise + heroism + masterwork item + a casting of fox cunning (for a total of +6) gives you very close to market price on a crafted item, you are basically able to convert XP to GP at a fairly good rate... and since there are no caster limits on +stat items then if you start at level 3 or 4 (with 3 people in the party having craft wondrous items) you will have +6 to all useful stats (for the character, which is 3-4 stats per character), a +2 cloak of resistance, vest of escape, and actually every possible item you could possibly want before the party fighter hits level 7... and then you are much more "powerful" than you should be thanks to your items, you are also gaining XP at an accelerated rate.

Anyways, my assumption was that in a party with a wizard/sorcerer, cleric/druid, a rogue, a bard, and the grinder... this big dipper is the grinder (obviously you should never dip if you want magic)... actually now that I think about it you could fulfill the rogue role with the multiclass bard and get two grinders... (although you miss out on the sneak attack damage which can be really nice with a tricked out bow rogue).

lay on hands sucks, at any level. clerics and druids should do the healing... heck even a bard is a better healer then a paladin.

 

Re: the big dipper - XP penalties, max number of classes, alignment, and save stackin

interesting. I decided to go test a few things myself:
1. the TOEE monk is not PnP monk, it stunning fist at level 1 instead of choosing between stunning fist and improved grapple. (of which improved grapple is better).

2. at level 2 the monk correctly gets a choice between combat reflexes and deflect arrows. you MUST take combat reflexes because it is an awesome feat. Since you dipped monk and have 13+ dex you can get either one now and the other later. (if the "one hand free" means you cannot use a two handed weapon then the feat deflect arrows is generally worthless.)

3. smite evil adds your paladin level as damage, and your charisma bonus as an attack bonus... 3 levels dip with no cha means you just get +3 damage on it... still useful with no cha.

4. as per PnP, once a monk takes a level in something else they cannot take more monk levels.

5. NOT per PnP, once a paladin takes a level in something else they cannot take more paladin levels.

6. Taking a 7th class breaks the class "list" at the top of your character sheet and it just shows up as blank, and your spell list "breaks" the bounds of the interface, with the 5th one being somewhat out of the interface box and the sixth one completely out of it. the 6th ignores any clicks on it due to its location. I managed to take 8 different classes with a lawful good character. The max you take is 9 due to alignment restrictions so I used a non lawful character and made a 9 class monster.

hilariously long feat list btw.

 

Re: the big dipper - XP penalties, max number of classes, alignment, and save stackin

Ok, one of my current designs for a big dipper:
monk 2: take two levels of monk to start off a modest BAB of 1 and very nice saves of 3 to each. At level 2 choose the feat "combat reflexes"... your fighter needs an int of 13 and a dex of 13+ (ideally you should use rolling and roll really well, because honestly you benefit from every single stat ... but you don't really need them all... str, con and dex are your main investments; dex due to it increasing your AC and more importantly, for giving you extra AoO per round)

for a weapon of course use the glaive, best melee weapon in TOEE (the dart on a string has that title for PnP, followed by spiked chain, dashed with a few other exotic weapons from far off splatbooks).... whenever possible you want to be enlarged for massive reach area for AoO and cleaves.
You should play a human and for your feats at level 1 chose power attack and cleave.
you can skip the monk if you don't care about your saves though.

Next you need 6 levels of fighter and 3 of paladin, take them in whatever order seems best. Just recall that the paladin is wrongly not allowed to take more paladin levels if he takes any other class... so the 3 paladin levels should be together.

for feats select: great cleave, dodge, mobility, spring attack, combat expertise, and whirlwind attack. you will get extra saves from the paladin, immunity to fear, bonus to your ally's throws against fear, adding your cha to all saves, a useless lay on hands, a smite evil for +3 damage once a day, and a paladin immunity to all diseases, and detect evil at will...
next level should be a fighter as well, take blindfight for that pesky miss chance. (or keep it for later)...

Afterwards you just go for the standard improved critical, weapon specialization, etc until level 20.

most of these abilities are rather meh but you got tons of them and the cost is... 1 BAB and delaying your acquisition of a few feats a few levels.

Since you can take monk and paladin later on (you are just required to take all their levels at once), you can start with fighter, then dip into monk and paladin later... since you want to get combat reflexes early I would get the 2 levels of monk early; or you could take it as a feat with a fighter and then take deflect arrows with a monk later on (assuming that deflect arrows works while wielding a glaive). It would be a shame to delay your acquisition of BAB 6 (for that extra attack) by starting out as a monk. And disease is only really an issue early on AFAIK. A cleric takes care of that later.

So I am really torn between:
Monk 2/Paladin 3/Fighter 15.
Monk 2/Fighter 7/Paladin 3/Fighter 8
Paladin 3/Fighter 7/Monk 2/Fighter 8
Fighter 7+/Monk 2/Paladin 3/Fighter remaining levels.

Although... those are just for the lawful good. A better chose is to be non lawful in which case you are allowed the barbarian.
A level of barbarian (+4 to con and str while raging... the +4 str alone is equivalent to 3 seperate fighter feats put together), followed by as many fighter levels as you need to get all the really good feats, followed by more barbarian. or start with barbarian then go into fighter... either way fighter/barbarian is better than just fighter or just barbarian.

 

Re: the big dipper - XP penalties, max number of classes, alignment, and save stackin

Why not just take 1 level of every class, alignment permitting? Just think of all the feats you would get. And you wouldn't need to have more than that one party member because you have all the classes covered.

 

Re: the big dipper - XP penalties, max number of classes, alignment, and save stackin

I dunno, may be a decent idea, but it feels like the guy will be one of those charas you really struggle to keep alive... May be wrong though.

As for higher-level stuff, I sort of agree with R.C. that slightly better stats are hardly a good tradeoff for high-level abilities you get from single-classing, especially considering the lvl10 cap.

 

Re: the big dipper - XP penalties, max number of classes, alignment, and save stackin

Wow, I was off searching for the max number of classes you can have in TOEE and glad I stumbled on this old thread. Thanks taltamir for sharing your thoughts on this as I am in the same mindset right now. How I got here is that I am in the process of planning a char for my play through (since my druid is on hold while the AC bug is there)...and wanted to try a wizard/cleric/fighter.

I started with being ok giving up 5th level spells since nothing felt critical to me (mind fog is nice to make sure tough guys miss their will save as is dismissal for outsiders), but keeping 4th level wizard spells results in only a BAB of 5 since I really want a char which can cast cure light wounds to heal (7 wiz levels = +3 BAB and 1 cleric lvl = +0 BAB and 2 fighter lvls = +2 BAB).

I hate resting constantly for hp (unrealistic) so I generally abuse scribe scroll and carry a stack with me (maybe abusing too? still, it costs me gold and exp).

I'm enforcing a lvl 10 cap for my initial playthrough as well as no reloads (ironman) and 1 PC and 3 NPCs.

What I'm leaning towards now is dumping lvl 4 spells as well and depend on found/bought scrolls instead for these spells I like since you can cast spells from scrolls even though you aren't that level yet in ToEE (is this a bug?). There's a lot of spells I like on the Lvl 4 spell list and if I had Extend Spell, I would be able to get extended haste as well. Here's what I would have to give up:
stoneskin (50 minutes vs 70 minutes, 50 points of damage vs. 70 points)
globe of invul
dimension door
charm monster
crushing despair
bestow curse
ice storm

All this is to of course, get up to BAB +6 by lvl 10 to get 1 more attack, so with haste, I assume you can get 3 attacks a round. Haste would only last 5 rounds, but still...

I've already rolled up a character under my 7 wiz lvls setting and here is the build out so far (none of this was using the console).
Human CG
STR 18
DEX 18
CON 17
WIS 11
INT 18
CHA 14

1 Ranger1 (You can't seem to take Ehlonna as a human and I wanted both the Plant and Sun domains for entangle and improved turning so I had to take this at lvl 1) - Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
2 Cleric1
3 Wizard1 - Combat Reflexes
4 Fighter1 - CON +1 - Power Attack
5 Wizard2
6 Wizard3 - Cleave
7 Wizard4
8 Wizard5 - WIS +1 - Craft Wondrous Items
9 Wizard6 - Great Cleave, Improved Turning, Spell Focus?
10 Wizard7

I already have 4 classes and can push this up to 6 even, but here's what I am thinking of replacing my 2 wizard levels with:


Cleric 3 - Gets me Barkskin spell (+2 AC) long duration as well as lvl 2 cleric spells. Decent stuff like consecrate, aid, hold person, spirit weapon, silence, divine favor gets +1, create natural amulet +1 too.

Fighter 2 - Not worth it to go 3 here, get +1 Feat

Barb 1 - Get Rage 1x / day (I believe rage in ToEE stacks with items?), Fast Move
Bard 2 - Get Uncanny Dodge

Paladin 1 or 2 - I can't get this with my alignment, but nicer saves

Ranger 2 - Get Combat Style Rapid Shot (nice if I wanted to use a bow)
Ranger 3 - Endurance (meh)

I'm leaning towards:
1) Barb 2 - Higher survival I think with uncanny dodge
2) Cleric 3 - Better spell ability all around
3) Fighter 2 and Barb 1 - I don't think I really need the feat that badly since I won't have enough for the really good combat stuff unless I wanted spell focus.

It's been years since this was discussed, but what do you think of the above options?

Thanks again for anyone taking the time to read and comment. I really enjoy character building probably more than playing.



The point of all this is of course to have FUN and try to create a flexible enough character to be able to Ironman (no reloads for any reason) the game solo with 1 PC without having ever played it before...(I played it about 5 years+ ago and don't remember much other than Homlett...I got as far as the start of the temple I think).

Since I don't know if you'll enter anti-magic zones, be swarmed my hundreds of undead, etc...this build for me is to allow me to:
1) Cast wizards spells (mostly)...It was up to lvl 4, but with this change, it'll be lvl 3 only and lvl 4 and 5 via scrolls to get another attack per round.

2) Turn Undead and heal (just hate resting). My first play through years ago was with a pure druid...Hated running back to town to rest and couldn't scribe scrolls.

3) I took ranger since Ehlonna only accepts non-humans, rangers, druids...I didn't like any of the other domains and entangle is a great mob control spell outside (it didn't work in the moathouse). I tend to not like the weapon focus / spec feats since I don't really know what weapons I'll find in the game.

4) Fighter is just for more feats...

5) Having 18 int gives me a lot of skills spread out, but not really enough for a lot of convo skills...
Mostly max class skills: Conc, Spellcraft
Max Cross class: Gather Info, Sense Motive, Tumble, UMD
Points scattered all over others.

6) One thing I never did like about spells is you eventually run out (assuming you aren't going crazy with scrolls which gets expensive) so falling back on a weapon to finish off a weak mob saves scrolls/spells, etc...

 

Re: the big dipper - XP penalties, max number of classes, alignment, and save stackin

Only thing is that only druids cast Barkskin- not clerics and druids have no 2nd level healing spells but they do at all other levels. Barbarian is also nice to get the Fast Movement skill- so far, looks good...

 

Re: the big dipper - XP penalties, max number of classes, alignment, and save stackin

And only Druids can make a necklace of natural armor which stacks with any and all armor pluses.

 

Re: the big dipper - XP penalties, max number of classes, alignment, and save stackin

I thought with the plant domain, I get the barkskin spell and can make natural armor items? This is again, assuming I drop 2 wiz levels for 3 total cleric levels.

 

Re: the big dipper - XP penalties, max number of classes, alignment, and save stackin

A cleric of Obad-Hai who took the plant domain can also make amulets of natural armor. Have one active atm, & does a wonderfull job

The only problem is that it's lvl 3 domain spell is useless (spike growth) because it causes CTD's. Which is a huge pity, as it's actually a very nice spell in pnp.