http://eu.greekreporter.com/2013/04/11/tagesspiegel-says-nazis-destroyed-greece/ And here is the article itself: http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/...ert-reparationen-von-deutschland/8046184.html The interesting bit is here: My translation of it: "a lot of money, but also great damage. In no other occupied country did the Germans cause so much destruction as in Greece. In the three and a half year occupation, 130 thousand Greek civilians were executed, including women children, and elderly people, in retaliation for Partisan warfare. 70 thousand Greek Jews were taken to concentration camps. 300 thousand Greeks suffered cold and hunger, because the Germans had confiscated fuel and food. 500 thousand homes, 50% of the industry and 75% of the roads and infrastructure was destroyed. In 1960 Germany payed 115 millio German Marks as compensation to Greece. This money was specifically for the families of the murdered Jews. On reparations for the damage done and the repayment of the forced loan, the Greeks still wait in vain." Just so we know.
The translation is a bit off. "In no other occupied country" would be a boastful exaggeration considering the damage e.g. to the occupied parts of the Soviet Union. "In wenigen besetzten Ländern" would better translate IMO into "in only a few occupied countries...". And the accuracy of the articles statements seems lacking too 3,5 years german occupation of Greece? Even that is only partial true: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Triple_Occupation_of_Greece.png in addition to obvious typos as "Tagersspiegel" even in the first sentence of "greek reporter".
Possibly, my knowledge of German is not that good. In order to show that there is no intentional change on my part, I included the original text. Someone with a better knowledge than me could do better, I believe. Regarding the triple occupation (I assume this is what you were referring to), the Italians and the Bulgarians were also present, however, being "subordinate" allies of the Germans there was German presence and activity in those areas, as well. I am not sure if the map of the zones of responsibility is accurate (it probably is), however, one very striking (and horrible) example comes to mind, that of the Distomo slaughter. The village of Distomo is West of Athens, in the province of Viotia, which, according to the "triple occupation map" clearly and well within "italian" territory. Yet, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distomo_massacre Some of the greatest atrocities were also conducted under German orders from the German-organised Tagmata Asfaleias (Security Batallions), Hitler's "eager thugs", who were Greek thugs, organised and equipped by the Germans. They were actually recruited and trained in Athens, and then sent off to western Greece and Peloponisos. Each consisted of a force of 600 privates (And NCOs, obviously), 50 officers, and one German officer.
There is no contradiction. Look at the map again. In the legend at the bottom the blue italian zone is described as german occupied *after septembre 1943*.
I fail to see how the duration of the occupation is the issue, rather than the crimes commited, and the identity of the culprits. Here is a documentary regarding the Distomo massacre, btw, in 24:34 there is a testimony from one of the German troops: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHAmlQ4GfM8
It´s about the article. When it states that 3,5 years of german occupation of Greece did something then at the very least there should have been 3,5 years of german occupation of Greece. If in a professional article of a newspaper not even simple facts are completely valid then the credibility of the whole article suffers from it.
The Italian army attacked Greece originally, and was defeated by the Greeks without managing to occupy Greek territory (apart from small initial gains). As for the Bulgarian army, never mind about that. The only army that defeated the Greek army from these three was the German army. Perhaps this is the reason why the article refers to 3.5 year German occupation, because without the German army this would not have been possible. It seems normal to consider it a German occupation, since the most powerful of the three allies was Germany, and therefore, the other two would be subordinate to Germany, even in their occupation of territories. Regarding the destruction of the infrastructure and the economy, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Greece) I don't see how one can reject ALL information based on one phrase. The destruction of the Greek infrastructure, as well as the atrocities committed by German forces are both well documented.
I don´t reject ALL information given in the article. What I wrote is that a professional journalist working for a professional newspaper could have done better to make his point. And that by using only partially valid data the whole article suffers. To present it as a full 3,5 years german occupation of Greece could only be seen to come from the understanding that Greece can´t press any money out of Italy or Bulgaria who are struggling in their own financial crisis. Edit: To make it more clear - the WIKI article for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_occupation_of_Greece is aptly name AXIS occupation of Greece, and if one searches for german occupation of Greece is redirected to it. It mentions that Greece was divided into three zones of occupation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_occupation_of_Greece#The_Triple_Occupation and that only later Germany did take over the italian and Bulgarian zone until it´s withdrawal from mainland Greece in 10/1944. So Germany did not occupy the whole of Greece for 3,5 years.
I still struggle to see the point, though. Is it: -Destruction of German infrastructure of Greece never occured? -Civilian casualties never occured? -Executions of civilians by German troops never occured? To make my own view clear, I am more interested in establishing the damage done (particularly on the civilians, and the toll on human lives), than speaking about war reparations (thus the "just so we know" line in the original post). My personal view on the "reparations" is that the current "Greek" government will not claim anything at all, so that is not really an issue for me. If you notice, I am not even bothering with the translation of the part that states the claim for the war reparations, I translate (as best I can) the paragraph that refers to the damage. For the record, Italian troops occupying Greece had a better "reputation" regarding their treatment of the population (from what I know) compared to the Germans, Bulgarian troops had a much worse one.
No, who had said that? Ahm - no. Who had said that? And again - no. Nothing of what you ask here has been stated by me. Probably the same damage and losses as in the last 68-69 years since the end of the occupation. So the article could be seen not only as being very late but even as superfluous - or worse, considering the timing of it publishing as a political maneuver abusing the greek dead as merely a card in the poker about receiving more financial aid from Germany to solve the financial crisis in Greece. Even if they would like to - and in their situation I could understand they they would like that - they couldn´t. There have already been several cases of italian and other states civilians who tried to sue Germany only to get nothing as result because no private civilian can sue a country according to international law. Only Greece could do that and Greece signed the treaty that put an end on any reparations to be paid by Germany. For a more serious view on reparations try http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschl...t-Deutschland-den-Griechen-70-Milliarden.html
By the way, since we are talking about the two major cities of Greece, Athens (the capital) and Thessaloniki, we are talking about a disproportinately large part of the population. In Athens, there were 1.124.000 people in 1940. http://www.athensinfoguide.com/history/t9-97-1governments.htm out of a total of 7.3 million at the same time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Greece#By_region The district of Thessaloniki had something less than 600 thousand, though I am not sure how many of them lived in the city of Thessaloniki.
If you read a bit more carefully, you will see that I did not actually say you made these statements, I was ASKING if any of these were the point you were making. I am glad to see they were not. Are you now claiming that the damage and losses, including human casualties, that Germany caused Greece were "the same damage and lossess as in the last 68 years since the end of the occupation"? This is preposterous. So you are claiming that in the last 68 years we have had thousands of people dying of starvation and cold, because the authorities confiscated food and fuel "for their own needs", we have had the military moving in villages and executing civilians, adding to the death toll. Ehm, actually, the first article was based on this article here: http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/...ert-reparationen-von-deutschland/8046184.html written by Gerd Höhler. I don't think he is a Greek. Regarding "financial aid to the Greeks": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLvkeqRbS34 But you keep coming back to the "reparations" issue. I thought I stated that: I don't see anything wrong with my use of English in this statement. I think it is pretty clear. Regarding the article, my skills with German are not so good, as I stated (I actually only have the first degree the Grundstuffe), so I would appreciate a small summary if possible, or at least the basic idea.
No. I meant that the damage and losses of the axis occupation of Greece *have not changed* in the 68-69 years since the end of the occupation. They are still as high/are the same as they were in 1944-1945. So the damage has been the same in the last 68-69 years since the end of the occupation. Which is why I mentioned that the article and the demands nowadays are very late. Basic idea of the "Welt" article: War crimes did happen in Greece. Economical damage in Greece estimated to be in fourth position after Poland, USSR and Yugoslavia. Germany was expected to pay huge war reparations to all allied states (20 Mrd.) Greece demanded HALF of that sum to which the Allies did not agree. Most of it was not paid in coin but in material (e.g. machines taken from german factories and sometime whole factories were disassembled and shipped). Greece did get a small percentage of those reparations as the Allies decided. The reparations were then put on hold by the Allies occupying Germany and were to be re-negotiated in the peace treaty after the reunification of Germany. In that treaty/treaties no further reparations were negotiated and agreed to among others by Greece.
Of course they have not changed, however, that does not mean that they are known to people here. Actually, there was a conversation in this forum, regarding this damage and losses, and I found out that people here, (to some extent) myself included, were actually unaware of them. The original post was related to that fact, and it attempted to set things right in that regard. I chose this specific article, because it was written by a German. I, too was not wholly satisfied with the first article, and therefore I sought the German article it was based on. And this brings us to the issue of the war reparations to Europe/allied states, in general: You are forgetting the Marshall plan, according to which it was actually the US taxpayer who payed huge sums for the reconstruction of Europe, Germany included. The author of the Welt article seems to neglect to mention the sums that (West) Germany received from this plan. Regarding the dissassembly of German factories, etc, I do believe that this (among others) was more of a disarmament/safety measure than anything else. Regarding the comment on "more financial aid to Greece", my answer was the youtube video. Because I find this: quite offensive, particularly if it is said by the descendants of the people who murdered them in the first place, my opinion is that in order to solve the current crisis here, we should imprison the Greek politicians who lead us to it, and of course return to our previous currency, as well as refuse the part of the debt that came as a result of corruption (eg overpricing of equipment provided by various companies, SIEMENS included). The answer is not to receive more loans (because this is what German E.U. "aid" is).
Just thought I would revive this thread because of this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/21/russia-germany-row-war-loot-exhibition It's just so interesting to cmpare Merkel's attitude toward works of art taken by Soviet soldiers, and her attitude toward damage inflicted by her own, on other countries. By the way, just for the record, both Bulgaria and Italy payed war reparations to Greece. I recently checked that.
