The Chargometer

A more general question about wands I wanted to ask you about. Currently, wands have 20 charges in ToEE. By RAW, of course, they have 50. This is all well and good, but the wands in ToEE are still *priced* as though they have 50 charges, making them much more expensive per charge relative to potions and scrolls than they are in RAW. So, personally, I would favor either changing the charges to 50, or reducing the price of the wands to 20 charges. What are your thoughts on that issue?

 

Re: Creating a Spell Spreadsheet

I'll respect whatever your final decision is of course. I'll lay out my reasoning, and the different options. If you want to make one of the changes, then I'd be glad to help implement it.

By RAW, a wand is priced at 15 x spell level x caster level x 50 (50 being the number of charges). By RAW, a scroll is 25 x spell level x caster level. By RAW, a potion is 50 x spell level x caster level. Note that this makes wands less per casting than a scroll is. This is counteracted by the fact that, with a wand, you have to buy a full 50 charges, as opposed to the single purchase of a scroll.

In ToEE, a wand is priced as above, but only has 20 charges. This means that, in essence, you are paying 37.5 x spell level x caster level per charge. Significantly, this is *more* expensive than a scroll is. Thus, wands in ToEE have lost their biggest advantage over scrolls: lower cost.


Wands in RAW, however, are always fully charged when bought. So, it's debatable whether it is appropriate to make a wand with 20 charges cost 15 x caster level x spell level x 20. Some would argue that you should pay more per charge with a fewer charge wand, since you don't have to buy as many charges.

On the other hand, I would say it's clear that wands should be cheaper per charge than scrolls are. Or, at least, not more expensive.

This provides a clear upper and lower bound on how much wands with 20 charges should cost.

Current: 15 x spell level x caster level x 50

Lower Bound: 15 x spell level x caster level x 20 (this is what we get if we simply scale down by the number of charges)

Upper Bound: 25 x spell level x caster level x 20 (this is what we get if we make wands the same price per spell as scrolls).

I think either of these two bounds, or anywhere in between, is defensible.

One example of a balance between these two options would be to simply half the current cost of each wand, which would amount to: 15 x spell level x caster level x 25.

Personally, I would probably go with the choice of the Upper Bound. This is, in a sense, the "safe" bet: minimizing the cost reduction while undoing the undesirable property of scrolls being cheaper per spell than wands.

-------Current --- Lower --- Upper --- Half Current
1st ---- 750 ------- 300 ----- 500 ---------- 375
2nd -- 4500 ------ 1800 ---- 3000 --------- 2250
3rd -- 11250 ----- 4500 ---- 7500 --------- 5625
4th -- 21000 ----- 8400 ---- 14000 -------- 10500


With regards to your caveat, another option would be to make scrolls and potions MORE expensive than they currently are. That would be in violation of RAW, but so is leaving wands at their current price, so..,


EDIT: Also with regards to the caveat, I suppose that the Appraise cost effect is hard-coded?

EDIT2: If you really, truly want to reduce player wealth, just change all the shops so that they are of the type that only buys things at half price. That's RAW, too. Of course, the issue is the endless waves of player bitching that would result...

 

Re: Creating a Spell Spreadsheet

For what it's worth, I would stick with the RAW and not attempt to re-write DnD to fit an economic plan.

If there is a need to remove player funds it can always be done through making the extras that have been added more costly, or even raise the price of buying a house in Nulb, you'd kind of expect to get ripped off there anyway.

Btw, I think all these recent fixes are rather exciting and great news!

 

Re: Creating a Spell Spreadsheet

If you want to stick with RAW, RAW is that you sell items at half price, no matter who you are selling it to. ToEE actually violates RAW by letting you sell items at up to 97% of their value with a sufficiently high appraise score. This is why you have such inflated wealth. Both from selling loot for twice as much as you should be able to, and because you can craft and sell items and make lots of money.

The only things that you're supposed to be able to sell at full value are gems and other monetarily liquid goods, such as trade goods.

 

Re: Creating a Spell Spreadsheet

You are absolutely correct.

Is it possible to change this?

 

Re: Creating a Spell Spreadsheet

There are different codes for shops, each of which indicating which types of goods will be bought, and at what price. One of the codes indicates a shop that will buy all goods, but only at half value. So, in theory, one could make every shop in the game of that type: they will buy all goods, but only at half the normal price.

Of course, this would actually mean you could sell goods at up to 48.5% of their value, with a sufficiently high appraise score. With a low appraise score it would be closer to only 30% of value.

From what I can tell, it would be very easy to implement. However, I'm not sure what the general reaction would be. It's obviously Gaear's decision, though if he chooses not to implement it, I'll probably offer the edited file (and I think that it would only be one file that needed changing) for those who wanted to play with the half sell prices in order to make money more meaningful in the game.

 

Re: Creating a Spell Spreadsheet

With respect, these two are clearly often mutually incompatible.

That being said, if your decision is to leave things at full sell price then I shan't argue further (though, as mentioned I'll probably provide at some point optional files for those who want to implement the RAW sell price for their game).

 

Re: Creating a Spell Spreadsheet

First success with temple.dll! (granted, I haven't decompiled it yet, this is just from looking at the compiled code.)

Anyway, I managed to find the parameter which stores the number of charges of an item. Specifically, I can use the line:

num_charges = target_item.obj.obj_get_int(obj_f_item_spell_charges_idx)

(Horrible, ain't it?)

to correctly retrieve the charges of an item. This is exciting to me because I've always been annoyed by not knowing how many charges a charged item has left. This way I can measure the charges, using a custom spell or item. ("Chargometer", anyone?) Just trying to figure out the best way to display the information, now. The floating text has to be entered into a mesfile, which is fine, but it would mean each number of charges would have it's own mesfile entry... so, 50 entries. Which is doable, but annoying. I'll do that if I can't figure out how to concatenate strings in float text.

Sleep now, though. Chargometer tomorrow

 

Re: Creating a Spell Spreadsheet

Ok, I made it into a 0th level spell called "Detect Charges", which is on the class spell list of all primary spellcasting classes. (Not Paladins or Rangers). Is this okay, Gaear, or would you prefer it be an "invisible" spell that is only accessible through certain items (such as the aforementioned "Chargometer")? It's an easy change either way.

When cast on an item, it will float the number of charges if between 1 and 50. e.g. "17 charges". If charges are 0, it will say "No charges". If charges are -1 it will say "Unlimited charges". If charges are greater than 50 it will say "51+ charges". I did end up having to create a spell.mes entry for each number of charges, which is why I don't continue individually above 50. I don't *think* there are items with more than 50 charges anyway.

I've made functional scrolls and wands of it, and it works like a charm. I used the Read Magic particle effects.

I'm keeping track of all the changes I made, along with the Resist Fire/Resist Cold etc. changes. Will bundle it all together when I'm satisfied with the changes, and the form they take meets Gaear's approval.

 

Re: Creating a Spell Spreadsheet

That is what I mean, but I'll gladly remove it from their spelllists. Instead, I'll create an item that allows the detection of charges. Any suggestions for an icon/name? =D

Sorry, I assumed you knew that the game uses -1 for the numbers of charges of an item if it is unlimited. An example being the Helm of Reading Magic. Check the protos.tab entry for Helm of Reading Magic to see what I mean.

True; I can remove the fanfare, no problem.