Project Jerkstop: The Final Solution

Discussion in 'General Modification' started by Gaear, Mar 14, 2012.

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  1. GuardianAngel82

    GuardianAngel82 Senior Member

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    Yep. Jerkstop.

    Have you been using the signpost several times per visit?

    Also, I am also going to have to add my tentative confirmation. I have had a mild, inconsistant case of jerkstop at the usual time in the game. No combat pose freeze on map entry yet. Will contine playing.
     
    GuardianAngel82, Jun 16, 2012
    #91
  2. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Established Member

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    Yes, I have been using the signpost.

    I doubt I can backout to a point before I used it...

    How do areas work in the game? Can I create an area I can warp to? I was thinking of trying to enter a cleaned-up version of Hommlet...

    I'll have to look at the modder threads at some point.
     
    FredSRichardson, Jun 16, 2012
    #92
  3. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Do you mean game areas specifically, or just generally? In ToEE, 'game area' is a term for the major locations in the game - Hommlet, Nulb, Temple, etc.

    I'd like to suggest we just stay focused on the job at hand and by the method set forth here, because if we start working at cross-purposes (testing different stuff, etc.) we won't likely get anywhere due to jerkstop's extremely shadowy and unreliable manifestations. We need everybody on the same task.

    "Cleaned up Hommlet" is going to be in the next release btw ... a great many mobs that were added shortly before JS appeared will be removed, among other things.

    It appears that the pathnodes can go back in, although we might postpone that until (if) we actually come up with something that works. e.g., pathnodes out: still jerkstop | pathnodes and mobs out: no jerkstop | put pathnodes back in and see if jerkstop stays gone. God knows what all may be contributing to this mess - might be more than one thing. :dizzy:

    p.s. - I should also point out again that in v5.8 (I think it was ... gazra says so), the signpost was missing, and jerkstop remained.
     
    Gaear, Jun 16, 2012
    #93
  4. GuardianAngel82

    GuardianAngel82 Senior Member

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    Whatever causes jerkstop is not present at the start of the game. It has an onstart and it progreesses. I get the impression that it is some sort of deterioration.
     
    GuardianAngel82, Jun 16, 2012
    #94
  5. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Established Member

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    I think in my first play-through I was woefully ignorant of the sign post and didn't use it until after I got to verbobonc. I also had jerkstop, but I can't remember when it kicked in.

    Let me know if there's anything I can do that will help. I have a slew of save games. I suppose if you had enough saves from various sources right before and right after jerk stop you might find a pattern through analyzing the data, but I don't know...

    What I was really wondering is if ToEE works at all the BG2 does. I have some experience with BG2/IWD2/etc debugging. IIRC in those games the areas accumulate "stuff" (globals etc) over time. I was thinking it would be neat if I could warp to a pristine Hommlet and see if the same phenomena still occurs.

    EDIT: the reason I say this is that I don't think I have jerkstop in any other areas (I can test that), in which case the phenomena is tied to whatever state Hommlet is in. At least for my game...
     
    FredSRichardson, Jun 16, 2012
    #95
  6. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Jerkstop is pretty well known to only occur in Hommlet, so your experience is normal.

    The comparative uselessness of saved games as far as jerkstop goes (and just JS in general) is that there is very little you can change in a map that will have an affect on the save that you can test, while there are quite a few things you can do to corrupt it. So this means that most saves are simply matters of "Yup, there's jerkstop."

    Depending on what you mean by pristine, chances are there will be no jerkstop because it will fundamentally be a different map. (I'm assuming you mean something along the lines of duplicate the Hommlet art and some rudimentary sectoring to another map number but don't put anything else there and then Teleport there after you get jerkstop in normal Hommlet and see what happens. Pretty sure there would be nor jerkstop. ;))
     
    Gaear, Jun 16, 2012
    #96
  7. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Established Member

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    I guess I'm naively thinking that it would be possible to figure out what's accumulating that finally leads to jerk stop.

    I'm somewhat interested in understanding the data structures in the game, but I suspect they're quite different from other games I'm more familiar with.

    That being said, if you think a cloned Hommlet would not have JS, doesn't that suggest that some resource accumulated in Hommlet is hitting a threshold at which point JS starts?

    EDIT: I take it back. JS could also easily be triggered by gradual accumulation on the character structures (inventory, effects, whatever) or on the game itself. Hommlet may just be sensitive to these changes in a way the other areas aren't.

    EDIT: One more naive question: could JS be inventory related? If I sell off all or most of my stuff could that put an end to it? Or if I moved the inventories over to a new set of characters built up from level one might they be JS free? I know a lot has been tried and JS seems transient in most cases, but I'm just curious.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2012
    FredSRichardson, Jun 16, 2012
    #97
  8. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    I suppose anything's possible, but with basic deduction we've narrowed it down. JS arrived in the latter stages of the v5.0.0 cumulative mod and fixes ('officially' in v5.5), rather suddenly. That suggests something happened in the modpack that triggered it. Also, crafting and inventory management have been around since the beginning - jerkstop-free before v5.5.

    It is entirely possible I think that something added in v5.5 caused some other weakness that was already near the brink to go over it, but if that's the case the solution will still be to remove what pushed the other over, as we won't be rebuilding the engine anytime soon. :)
     
    Gaear, Jun 16, 2012
    #98
  9. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Established Member

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    I know you must have gone down many roads with this, and perhaps this is well covered ground, but anyway...

    I thought maybe the accumulation of items was part of the problem. After all, there is one thing that clearly grows with more mods: more loot.

    I have a negative result: I experienced jerk stop and decided to see if emptying out my characters inventories would have an effect. I didn't want to sell items in stores because area transitions and such could easily clear the jerkstop for a while. So I just had all the characters drop everything on the ground.

    Anyway, jerkstop persisted with empty inventories. It's possible that having a ton of stuff on the ground was also a problem.

    I thought it would be great if there was a way to see if jerk stop goes away when the characters are replaced with completely new characters (no inventories or anything else). The problem is that there's no easy way to do this without a lot of other side effects (transition to tavern and so on).

    I'm kind of interested in this so I'll keep playing around. If I can reach a point where the JS is really bad that actually would be good for this :p
     
    FredSRichardson, Jun 17, 2012
    #99
  10. Gaear

    Gaear Bastard Maestro Administrator

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    Did you dump your items on the ground in the Hommlet exterior map? Might be interesting to see what happens if you dump them inside the inn and then go out (with a jerkstop-ready save). Specifically, load your jerkstop save, get jerkstop outside in Hommlet, go into the inn, dump your items, and then go back outside and see if you get jerkstop.

    Suggested culprits have also been heavily crafted items with complex animations.

    You could try this in much the same way in the inn. Load your jerkstop save, go outside and enjoy jerkstop, go back inside the inn, use the guest book to dismiss and add characters until all your originals are gone, and then go back outside and see if you get jerkstop.
     
    Gaear, Jun 18, 2012
    #100
  11. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Established Member

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    Hey Gaear! Yes I ran into the problem that an area transition into the pub and back would clear jerkstop.

    I actually thought I had a major breakthrough at one time by selling all my items. Jerkstop indeed went away! But wait, I loaded the same game jerkstopping game and just had the party transition to the same stores without selling anything any jerkstop also went away...

    Ditto for starting with a fresh party. Jerkstop went away, but probably due to the area transition to/from the pub...

    So I may need to wait for JS to get pretty bad to really see if I can clear or trigger it in various ways.

    But even then, some magical incantations may prove to be temporary fixes if one waits long enough. Which of course is frustrating...

    I'll keep playing around and let you know if I can find anything promising.
     
    FredSRichardson, Jun 18, 2012
    #101
  12. GuardianAngel82

    GuardianAngel82 Senior Member

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    In it's early stages, Jerkstop routinely clears up when you leave and reenter a map.
     
    GuardianAngel82, Jun 19, 2012
    #102
  13. FredSRichardson

    FredSRichardson Established Member

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    @GuardianAngel82: Yes, I think you've got it. It will be neat to see if I can clear the problem somehow. I guess I should be too optimistic lol :p
     
    FredSRichardson, Jun 19, 2012
    #103
  14. GuardianAngel82

    GuardianAngel82 Senior Member

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    TOO optimistic is better than not optimistic enough. :p
     
    GuardianAngel82, Jun 20, 2012
    #104
  15. Daryk

    Daryk Veteran Member

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    I just got into the War of the Golden Skull under 7.2. The town defense, eastern patrol, east road and guard tower worked without a hitch, but when I got to the grove, jerkstop kicked in with a vengeance. On the approach, I had to resort to using combat movement, and when I tried to fire an arrow to attack, it froze on launch.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2012
    Daryk, Jun 23, 2012
    #105
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