Human/STR vs Elf/DEX based rogue

So I'm starting a new game, hoping to get through the whole thing for once using 3.04 and staying capped at level 10.

Within 8 or 9 rolls I picked up 18, 18, 16, 16, 15, 13. Amazing roll and I'm 'holding' on to it for my rogue. I have two builds in mind, STR vs DEX as the title says and finding myself unsure which to go with. So perhaps after I go through what I have in mind those with more knowledge than I of the game and it's rules might offer me their input. Guess I'm enough of a power gamer that I want to get the most out of my characters.

Human Fighter 4/Rogue 6
18 str, +2 at level 8, +6 from belt of giant strength, total of 26
Gets the human bonus feat, no need for weapon finesse
What to do with those 2 extra feats. Power attack/cleave or dodge/imp. two wpn fighting?

Elf Fighter 4/Rogue 6
18 dex, +2 from race, +2 at level 8, +6 from gloves of dexterity, total of 28
No human bonus feat, needs weapon finesse to maximize the build
Gains +1 to attack with weapon finesse, loses +1 to dmg, no armor that will allow me to use the full dex modifier for his AC
Loses 10 hit points at level 10 from constitution penalty

Both builds take wpn focus + specialization in short swords, imp. initiative, combat reflexes, two wpn fighting, two wpn defense

I find myself leaning towards the human rogue primarily for the 2 feats he'll have on the elf on top of the other bonuses (more hit points, skill points). All I really see that the elf build has over the human is +1 to attack. Is there anything I'm missing about the elf rogue that makes him better at his job? Aside from the race bonuses for search, spot, etc. which I care little about and are offset by the extra skill points humans get.

 

Elves are wussies, that should clear things up

Question is, why use 3.04?

 

I've never played through the whole game before. I'd like to do so before trying new content, but I want some of the bug fixes Co8 has done. From what I've read of the patch notes and according to some on this forum 3.04 works best for me. Minimal new content while fixing many bugs.

 

TBH, with a roll like that, it doesn't really matter. You'll blow through the game easily either way. Just go with whatever is more fun for you.

Food for thought #1: elf favored class is neither fighter nor rogue, so unless you level the two classes evenly, you'll get hit with XP penalty.

#2: If your DEX is too high, naked/robes is always an option.

#3: I find cleave less than useful if you already have TWF. You're not gonna hit often enough/hard enough to find yourself cleaving a lot, especially not with shortswords. Also, if you take TWF, you really need ITWF, and G. Cleave is more useful than Cleave.

#4. Bow rogues are superior to TWF rogues in just about every way

Racial proficiency longsword and longbow. There was something else, but I forget.


PS I definitely would recommend 7.1.0 (non-NC) instead of 3.04. The game's come a long way since then, and none of the big extra content is in the newer version. Reactive Temple is just about the only thing.

 

I'd prefer the human STR based character, but that's just me. With a little crafting you should be able to add enough damage boosters that the STR damage loss will be negligible. For feats I'd suggest Power Attack / Cleave (especially for the STR build) and I'd use Imp TWF instead of TWDefense on both builds (and use a mithral buckler.)

 

Oh yeah, missed that, TWD is totally a waste of a feat, +1 AC is negligible. If anything I'd rather take Dodge and Mobility on that extra human feat.

If STR-based, why not go half-orc?

 

About yr build i see wasted levels why bother going fig for 4 lvls ?? most of the time u will have superior initiative roll and when u don't u just flank........ the backstabing dmg bonus will be superior to the measly +2 from wpn spek
If u go the thugish rogue route u will be better served by a barb 2/rogue 8 (faster,more hp, better will saves) and it would be wise using a 2x handed beast (falchion would be optimum but greasword/axe or spike chain will be good as well also bastard sword isn't a bad call if u afford the extra feet(sometimes using a shield for better ac is better then a heap of potential dmg)) for this guy u should use medium armor and focus on the few important skills for the rogue lockpicking&searching
For the dual finesse build i recommend using ranger 2/rogue 8(1 favored enemy so chose wisely) and a free TWF feat; for this one i find it best to start as lvl 1 ranger(finesse&wpn focus) +1 rogue lvl and +1 ranger(at this point u get both TWF and chose TWD) this one starts as a shiled and sword type till lvl 3(by then hes got adequate hp and be capable to actually hit smth when dual wielding) afterwards he dual wields as far as his stats go i rly wouldn't bother with raising hes dex more then +6 (+5 as elf from lvl 1) so he goes for the mitral shirt(best lite armor there is) and the rest i would pump towards raising hes con
Both of these builds will do wonders for you but for me the best build would be a 2x handed finesse rogue using the spiked chain(barb 2/rogue 8) as he can strike from as safe distance always get initiative and rarely will he be unable to safely flank smth(chain's reach+tumble skill+barb speed guarantees it) and the attacks of opportunity are always welcomed(especially against blinded opponents :evilgrin: ) plus since hes not dual wielding hes attack is pretty much guaranteed to hit; best thing about him is that he won't care about str drains and will reliably hit its target(never seen a dex drain in toee so far) for this one the optimum starting stats would be smth like 18 dex,14/16 str, 14/16 con. Due to his above aveg dex hell perform its rogue skills efectively, its lite armor enables him an outstanding mobility plus its favored wpn the chian lets him keep out of trouble&provide suport all around himself (smth going for party's mage will get at least get attacked twice for free by the rogue set on intercept or bodyguard dutty) and do a decent dmg eaven on a reguar atack. Versatility wise this build would probably serve u best.

 

I'll look into it, but I could of sworn even than a Co8 coder suggested 3.04 was more in line with what I want.

While I don't pretend to not be a power gamer, I still have my preferences and half-orc just isn't one of them. Not a fan of halflings or gnomes either. I'll take another look at the feats.

Anyway human STR build it is. Appreciate the advice everybody.

 

Lies, if you plan rogue class levels, it's always best to take lvl 1 rogue, otherwise you rob yourself of skill points.

 

They're immune to magical sleep and get a +2 to DEX and a -2 to CON. For your builds though, a Human is a better choice since the Elf will suffer EXP penalties once he stops investing in Fighter levels.

TWF Rogues make excellent Monks. Other than that, yeah I find that Bow Rogues are much more effective.

The main difference between 3.04 and the later versions is that monsters in the newer versions are closer to their actual D&D stats. In 3.04, some enemies are nerfed from their actual D&D counterparts.

 

Oh come on Ausdoerrt u rob yrself of skill points rly ?? wtf does a toee dex based rogue need so bad ?? let me say it for you : search,open lock,listen&tumble those are the top tier skills the rest are entirely luxury/expendable skills so he needs what ?? 4 skill points even a stupid as a brick ranger gets 4 skill points and if u worry about recovery of cross class skills well i promise u won't need more then 1 or 2 rogue levels to max out the important skills. Naturally if u have the rogue do the laundry(aka also party face person as well&secondary mage') then yes it is more complicated but doable none the less; but for the average rogue its best to start as ranger/other class first to give himself a few more hp, aditional wpn proficiency and a better fortitude save.......

 

Pffttt...

In ToEE you can easily get to lvl 2, almost lvl 3, by FedExing without ever leaving Hommlett. So unless you need the extra BAB and HP to complete your alignment vignette (LOL) then there's no reason not to take Rogue at level 1 for the bonus skill points...

 

I'd go with a pure elven rogue, 16 STR, 18 DEX(+2 to 20), 16 CON (-2 to 14), 18 INT, 13 WIS, 15 CHR.

As an elf you get free use of longbows and longswords, without going too much away as a spoiler, its safe to say that in any fantasy role playing game, there are going to be magic longswords, as opposed to other exotic weapon choices. Remember rogues can sneak attack with missile weapons from 30 feet in (you can check this on the game easily by seeing how far the character can move in combat, as a medium character they can move 30 feet unencumbered). With the added DEX bonuses, you will hit better with the bow than anything else.

By making your INT 18, you max out your skill points, so this character will be your talker, an important role in this game. This will be aided by the 15 in CHR. Also max out your key rogue skills like disarm traps, and open locks. Some points in search, spot, and listen helps out, and Tumble is always good to take. Appraise will help with cash flow, which is needed in the non NC game. Even Use Magic Device is great, the rogue can use scrolls and wands usually reserved for wizards or clerics.

By going all the way as a rogue, you will get access to the special rogue only Feats at level 10, go with the Crippling Strike , as it will come in handy at the end game.

 

Yes u aren't mistaken on that one is just that i chose to avoid fedexing as much as possible, heck sometimes i'm hitting the mothouse at lvl 1
because i usually employ well planned partys(but since i chose to not relay on any offensive magik(no wiz,sorc or druid in my parties) each party member needs to start out with decent hp and at least decent melee/archery skills) but due to self imposed play restrictions i need every one to be combat capable a.s.a.p. also for me it feels more realistic that way since u are supposed be simple adventurers/mercenarrys not the king's elite guard and have all u can dream about at yr disposal in terms of both knowledge and power and fedexing doesn't really fill the bill (u became adventures to actually gain fame/riches other wise yr party members would have sticked to theyr former fedx jobs(butcher,apothecarrys,tool crafters ... etc) and wouldn't have bothered to quickly pick up combat skills (aka fig/ranger/..) and gang up to employ them as soon as possible in order to fill up a perhaps tragically empty pocket/belly

 

What about Disable Device? Also IMO, Hide and Move Silently are useful too since it allows you to either scout ahead or move your Rogue into a more advantageous starting position before combat starts.

Lastly, normally you'll want your Rogue to be the party's spokesperson as well unless you're using a Bard.