A few small fixes and changes

Yeah, really nice job mwnn!!! Thanks Gaear for fixing these long-standing irregularities AWESOME

 

Dungeon Level 2


Fire Temple

Tobal's Collection Agency

• Tobal only appears to offer this quest - before you accept the first quest from Alremm. Should you attempt to get the quest after - he'll redirect you to Antonio.
• You can continue to roll dice for the Mace with Antonio - after winning the Mace.
• Some minor dialog changes needed (ie you can state that "you'll have trouble getting the Mace" after already acquiring it)

Operation Ogre (2nd Fire Quest)

• The Ogre Chief doesn't acknowledge that he's already been recruited - once you pass the Diplomacy check.
• The Ogres don't appear to vacate the cave and move to the Fire Temple.

Miscellaneous

• The Troll Chief doesn't relocate to the Fire Temple if you recruit him.
• Solving the second quest after botching the first quest - doesn't grant you the "Member of the Fire Temple" in the Reputation Log. You can safety discard the robes however.

Water Temple

• You can safety enter the Water Temple without wearing their Robes - you can in fact wear anything, even Fire/Earth/Air Robes.
• The Troll Chief doesn't relocate to the Water Temple if you recruit him.
• It's possible that some minor dialog changes are needed (ie if you solve the 2nd Water quest - Belsornig will mention that "Romag will find out" but it's possible he could already be dead)

Air Temple

Defection (1st Air Quest)

• You can convince the Bugbear Chief to join the Air Temple before you accept the quest - through a Sense Motive check.
  You only get this option when you talk to him for the very first time.
  If you've already talked to him you can still bribe, use Intimidate or wear Air Robes after taking the quest.

• The Bugbear Chief doesn't relocate to the Air Temple after convincing him to move. His dialog does change to reflect this.

Desecration (2nd Air Quest)

• You can safety desecrate the Earth Temple without provoking any member of the Earth Temple.

Miscellaneous

• Forced conversations don't pick out the party leader (an invaluable addition that you've made)
• You're able to loot the personal chests of the Temple leaders without any response - without even being a member.
• Releasing the Prisoners doesn't appear to provoke anyone.

Would it be possible to restore the conversational options between Tubal and Antonio which result in them killing each other? (in a similar fashion to the Triple-Cross quest)

This would tie in better with the alternate Earth Temple quest. (it's mentioned in the global flags thread & some guides)

Perhaps a bluff/diplomacy check on Antonio after he loses the Mace, followed by a bluff/diplomacy on Tubal?

 

That's really the main reason why I thought no-fog would be great. That and the way the outdoor temple map reminds me of the Cathedral map in Fallout.

Lovely looking concept art - has a watercolour feel to it. They did a good job of modeling that in isometric - damn shame only 1 game was made off it.

Was anything done with this area in the original written module? I guess it does make sense for the outer temple to appear desolate.

That all sounds good to me :thumbsup:


I believe I heard (one of the few) voiced lines from Elmo when entering the Temple map (after the cinematic) - it's never triggered since. (ie Uhhh...there's something bad behind those big sealed doors???)

I should add that:

• Fighting the Drelb (who attacks on sight) in the Air Temple will provoke Kelno (Air Priest) - whilst fighting the Werewolves in the Magic Mirror room doesn't. I think it should be neutral - like the Werewolves, Bandits, Ogres and Bugbears in the upper section of level 2. (Picture #1)

• It's possible to have (negative) Prayer cast on you by a hidden/concealed party in the bottom right corner of Emridy Meadows at a low level. I believe these opponents tie in with a much later quest.

The conditions which cause some of the opponents to fight in the upper half of Dungeon Lvl 2 seem a bit screwy...

• The Greater Bugbears always attack (top right)
• The Ogre Shaman + friends always attack (center map)
• Some of the bandits don't attack with robes on (Picture #2)
• The leaders in the lower room always attack (top left) (Picture #3)

 

Temple Dungeon Level 3

Not much to report here thankfully - predominately combat with very little dialog.

• As with the other Temple levels - forced dialog (assassin, wizard, etc) doesn't regularly pick out the party leader.

• Should you convince Falrinth to give you the Orb - he disappears but his familiar (Quasit) is left behind. A visual effect is also left behind. (Picture #1)

• Elmo is able to recognize Prince Thrommel (as a vampire) and he can also be identified through normal dialog.
  
  However if you cast Dispel Magic on Prince Thrommel after he's already been recognized the initial dialog will replay. He does mention being under an illusion spell if you talk to him after recruiting him.

Improvement (?)

• The encounter with the Assassin leader may be better if she attempts to bluff you immediately instead of attacking (Picture #2)
  
  It's possible to kill her in the opening / 2nd round - meaning the other assassins don't appear and missing her bluff dialog (Picture #3) (That's with the Max HP options on)
  
  Occasionally she'll summon the other assassins after the opening round - skipping the bluff dialog.

Nulb

An odd one I stumbled upon.

• Completing the "Triple Cross" quest causes Rentsch to be killed...
  
  Attacking or catching Dala stealing will cause her to state the dialog line that references Rentsch - after the fight. (Picture #4)
  
  No weird dialog lines are available to pick should you catch her stealing post "Triple Cross" (ie Rentsch doesn't come back from the dead).
  
  You still have to end the actual fight to make her appear - which can seem a bit odd if Rentsch is gone.

 

Moathouse Respawn

• Various dialog fixes (Picture #1, Picture #2)
  
  If you never get to hear about the "Ring of Resonance" (ie "We'll ask questions") when picking the line "How about a reward" - the option states - "A Different Ring"

• I'd be nice if you could steal the "Ring of Resonance" through "Sleight of Hand" and get the extra item after refusing to purchase it. :evilgrin:
  
  Maybe through dialog and the rolling of a die? Or just a skill rank check? If it isn't possible to do it through the "Sleight of Hand" option.

• Are the objects (highlighted) in Picture #3 intentional?

• I don't really see the purpose of Mother - the (non-serious) dialog would suggest a inside joke/parody?

I was probably vastly overpowered at Level 10 - would've taken it on earlier (Lvl 7/8) - the 100hp+ Morhg's made me think twice.

Even so the opponent selection seemed a bit erratic. Morhg's, Bodak's (nice!) in one room, weak Gnolls in another? Drow aren't too tough either - certainly easier than Arena 3. (which I did at mid-level)

Unfortunately I just spent a small fortune on +3 enchantments & wondrous items - I never guessed I would've been offered a Wizard's dream item.

The crap loot dropped doesn't nearly add up to 20k - maybe the "Blade of Fury" was equal in price to the ring? Is the barter option now redundant?

How about a Diplomacy check for half price? Maybe even a nasty Intimidate option? Or bluff to tie in with "Sleight of Hand"?

Should the names of the alternative items be revealed? As it is now - you can save/reload if you get a bad item.


...unfortunately the witch slipped on a banana peel and landed on a sharp shortsword - how unlucky - but those swamps are slippery


Burne and the Orb

• Dialog fixes (Picture #4)

Additionally Burne claims that he needs time to research the Orb - but will explain what needs to be done without time passing.


Retirement

Is it normal to be offered retirement before the Temple is beaten?



ps I'm sure I would've normally found Swamp Lotus by now...

 

I always thought they had been turned to stone by what was lurking in the room next to them.

 

I suppose I am. It makes the line appear disjointed and/or shouted.

I'm not sure if it's really necessary.

hehe, I didn't just step off the banana boat :twitch:

The line should read as you've said - but you've substituted the missing words. The line reads:

Code:

Why do Drow kill? [COLOR="Red"][You might][/COLOR] as well ask why do they breathe.

My bad - it didn't even get the chance to try and petrify me

The "Moathouse Respawn" thread mentions the Drow leader having the "Blade of Fury" - I assume that would've been worth 20,000GP (like the Silver Sword of Chaos, Unholy Orc Double Axe)

As all that nice stuff is now removed - I thought a Diplomatic, Bluff, Intimate or stealing option might add some flavor. I would've thought the Witch's life is worth at least 20,000GP?

After all it doesn't appear to be possible to raise the 20,000GP for the Ring from that area alone and the other items don't appear to be worth the trouble.

Don't get me wrong - I like the way the gnolls appear likewise with the zombies substituting the bandits.

But whole area does seem a bit random when it comes to difficulty.

I'd class the Werewolves, Bodak's, Groaning Spirit & Morhg - as higher level encounters - due to their damage resistance, hitting hard or abilities. Especially when combined.

Whilst the Skeleton Cleric + Guards, Gnolls & Zombies and so on are low-mid-level stuff.

Personally I'd soften it to be mid-level (like Hickory Branch) or toughen it and make it Post-Temple. (ie every zombie is a Morhg, Bodak's in place of Gnolls, add monsters to the empty areas etc)

I don't believe I've seen Vampires in ToEE or anything that can level drain.

*hides from ShiningTed*

I thought a "Fallout 2" level of pop-culture references would be best avoided.

Al Capone gangsters in post-apoc world, errgkkk!

:evilgrin:

Probably for the best then :thumbsup:

Negative - fought several encounters on swamp maps - the lotus would be highlighted with TAB wouldn't it?

I think I read that Dwarven Plate Armor is now given as a reward? Perhaps I dreamt it :scratchhe

The thought never entered my head :hug:

 

Temple Dungeon Level 2

I thought I caught all the bugs on this level - I found a few more quite by accident while playing today.


Water Temple Final Quest 3 - The Setup

• If Ogre and Bugbear jailor are killed before this quest is offered - if enough time passes their bodies will disappear.
  
  Making it impossible to plant the Earth robe - hence the quest cannot be solved nor is it failed (Picture #1)
  
  (Belsornig's dialog makes frequent mentions of the other Faction leaders when solving his quests - problematic if they've already been killed!)

Miscellaneous

• Killing the Fire Temple aligned troll (Picture #2) or the Water Temple aligned troll (Picture #3) will provoke the neutral Troll Chief (Picture #4)
  
  (Ideally if "Oohlgrist for Water/Fire" - has been solved he'd get provoked along with the respective Temple)

• Killing the Water Temple aligned troll will not provoke Belsonig.
  
  The Water Temple bugbear leader will be provoked - but killing him doesn't provoke Belsonig. (Picture #5)
  
  (These are the Bugbears which should leave the Water Temple on solving the "Defection"quest for the Air Temple - as mentioned previously)

 

Right you are Boss elvicthr

It doesn't. I'm just adding up the value of the other items that get dropped with an average Appraise value.

With the Sword, 5x pairs (?) of Elven Boots and anything else they originally dropped - it may have been possible to get the money for this super item from solving the quest alone.

Not a big deal really - more a conflicting ideology.

I assume it could be created with "Forge Ring" at level 12? It seems like the other alternate items can be.

I'm about as lucky as usual then


I saw something abnormal happen yesterday (Picture #1) - the Dwarven Plate already has +3 and Spell Resistance (working) but I can re-add those enchantments and get charged xp and gold.

I'm also wondering why there are 3 chests (Temple Dungeon 4 - Picture #2) named:

• Ettin's Chest A
• Ettin's Chest B
• Ettin's Treasure Chest

All 3 trapped but only 1 has stuff inside - the other two aren't worth unlocking as a simple mouse hover over shows them as empty.


Is it possible clean up areas - post fight? The "Moathouse Respawn" was full of valueless non-magical leather armor, swords, etc - from the previous battle.

Likewise for the Temple bugbears and Guards - endless basic armor, shields and Cure Light Wounds potions.

Is it a difficult process to stop enemies from dropping all their gear? Can it be done on a global level - or is it on an individual enemy basis?


You might get the impression that I'm not enjoying playing through ToEE and the mod - I promise you that it isn't the case - Verboblonc alone looks like an entire game itself!

Messing around with buckler today (Picture #3)
It's funny (but compliant) how the shield & enchantment bonuses from a buckler, a ring of force & two weapon defense - all interact with each other, base attack and AC.

 

1. Re. the relocation of Temple parties
   
   Judging by the screenshots, none of the Temple have regrouped - is that correct? If so, that's not a bug, just standard vanilla behavior. If the Temples have regrouped, and the relevant mobs haven't relocated, then that's a bug.
   
   I wouldn't relocate them prior to the regroup scenario:
   1. The defecting bugbears - it's already too crowded in there. They have a nice enough room anyway, in a strategically convenient location for the Air Temple.
   2. Likewise for Fire Ogres. Though I've often considered relocating just the Ogre Chief, who is insanely powerful. Maybe I'll implement that.
   3. Oohlgrist - I think it's fitting that he stays in his Troll lair, going by his attitude. The exception being the regroup scenario, in which case he does relocate.
   
2. Re. provokementability*
   
   Unfortunately, the handling of KoS status seems very erratic.
   E.g. in my testing, sometimes attacking the werewolves also triggers an attack from the Fire Temple, and likewise, sometimes attacking the Drelb doesn't trigger an attack from Kelno.
   
   Curiously, it depends on who attacks the Drelb / Werewolves. It seems that if it's the leftmost character attacking, then it doesn't trigger hostility, while attacking with anyone else does. To comlicate matters, dragging the portrait doesn't change anything
   
   It is also related to having an NPC in the party - it seems that only if a temple NPC notices a party NPC, after one of the above killed the Drelb/Werewovles (or Air Elementals for that matter), then combat is triggered.
   
   edit: This also applies for the Trolls.
   
   Also, I should point out that the Werewolves and Drelb aren't supposed to be neutral - the werewolves for instance are indeed members of the Fire Temple, and the Drelb is a guardian of the Air Temple.
   
   *yes, I just made that up
   
3. Re. Dala
   
   Are you aware that you have to pass time (2 hours) before she attempts to steal from you again?
   
   As for her disappearing from the room, that occasionally happens for some reason, even though I did try to bulletproof it so she doesn't try to steal unless she's back to her starting spot. *shrug* she should be back to normal if you re-enter the room.
   
   BTW, how did Pearl end up there (in the black area)? That's genuinely bizarre.
   

 

I wanted to take on each temple in a specific order so I could join all four temples and solve all of their quests.

I fought the Fire temple first (which helps to solve the Water, Earth and Air quests)
-> then Water
-> then Air (without changing the map!)
-> finally Earth

I don't believe I got the chance to see the regrouping unfortunately.

Great!

As it didn't make sense to keep reading the Ogre Chief's repeating dialog lines - I ended up returning to the cave and wiping them out along with the purge of Temple Levels 1-4.

You could do the same as the Ogre Chief - ie relocate the Bugbear Chief and make the others disappear - the Water Temple is meant to be weakened by solving "Defection".

ToEE isn't short of Bugbears after all

It certainly is erratic - but even as it stands right now - it's possible to complete every Temple quest for every faction, concurrently - with a bit of foresight.

It's really just the odd action/fight which causes a whole faction to go hostile.

And for those issues - I mostly just used a funny work around (ie I looted the chest for Wonnilon without fighting the zombies by using Invisibility hence not provoking the Earth Temple)


It may take a very long time to untangle these intertwined groups/factions - your choice as to whether it's worth it.

I think it may have been caused by applying the fix you posted - without the 2 hours passing.

After copying the updated script file you posted - I loaded my savegame in Nulb outside the Waterside Inn.

Upon entering Dala would attempt to run up to a party member (not the leader) but wouldn't make a "Sleight of Hand" attempt - then she'd run back facing the wrong direction.

If she couldn't reach a party member she'd occasionally get stuck and then shoot off in that wild direction. Elvis has left the building!

After quite a bit more game time had passed, I returned to Nulb - then it appeared to be working.


When a newer version of the mod pack comes out - I'll do be sure to do a complete clean install of the GoG version of ToEE and go through again - probably with an evil party.


Temple Dungeon Level 4

Not really anything to report here other than a few suggestions/minor fixes/questions. After fighting Hedrack - I'm finally approaching the end of the "vanilla" game.

Got the Elemental Nodes, Zuggtmoy and Verboblonc to go!


Hill Giant / Druid (Picture #1)

• Should the "Hill Giant" reveal herself - so as to not get killed by mistake? She didn't go hostile with the other giants (even when I attacked her)
  
  She did revert to her human form afterward though - but she still wouldn't talk. I know that guides mention you can recruit her with a druid in the party.

Hedrack's Earth Chest (Picture #2)

• Doesn't appear to have any magical item inside - the other 3 chests do...

Commander of the Temple Guards (Picture #3)

• Carries two helms in his inventory.

Senshock doesn't stack (Picture #4)

• Carries his Robe (+3 Armor, Spell Resistance) and Braces of Armor +3
  
  Shouldn't that be exchanged for a Amulet of Natural Armor +3?

• Incidentally what's intended to happen with Senshock? I ended up killing him in the opening round with sneak attacks (with a rogue + ranger/rogue)
  
  I did see him initiate a brief dialog and disappear from the fight (presumably ending up in Verboblonc?)
  
  After the brief dialog the rest of the enemies had green friendly rings and I could initiate dialog.

Hedrack and Iuz (Picture #5)

• On rare occasions after passing the will saving throw they don't go immediately hostile (Has that check been lowered? Even my fighter with 8 wisdom can make it!)

• It's possible but rare for Hendrack to not summon Iuz - is this ideal?

It seems that with a lot of these "timed" battles - several weird things can happen. The new Moathouse fight with Lareth (and dialogue floats) all worked perfectly though - I think it might even be one of the most memorable of the game.